Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 09:05:00 +0100 From: David Chisnall <theraven@freebsd.org> To: "lain." <lain@fair.moe> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <9BDCF10F-5422-469D-B052-58A7E2153680@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <8CAA2984-2168-46ED-8F66-3CE65729D67D@freebsd.org> References: <8CAA2984-2168-46ED-8F66-3CE65729D67D@freebsd.org>
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--Apple-Mail-1E071F8D-02F9-4215-80E5-9F451BA22255 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bah, I failed at copying and pasting the links. Here are the correct links t= o the graphs: C and C++ contributors: https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributor= s&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%25= 5B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate And with Rust: https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributor= s&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%25= 5B%255D=3Drust&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate David > On 4 Sep 2024, at 08:43, David Chisnall <theraven@freebsd.org> wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >> On 4 Sep 2024, at 07:35, lain. <lain@fair.moe> wrote: >>=20 >> About C developers being in decline, I actually disagree with that. >> I have seen younger generations getting interested in C the more they >> get overwhelmed by the amount of new languages to chose from. >=20 > This does not reflect my experience in hiring, the data I=E2=80=99ve seen f= rom a major tech company, or the trends in open source contributions. >=20 > It is far easier to hire C++ developers than C developers. This shift star= ted a bit after C++11 was released and has continued.=20 >=20 > This trend is reflected in open source. Here is the OpenHub graph: >=20 > https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontribut= ors&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%= 255B%255D=3D-1&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&com= mit=3DUpdate >=20 > This shows the number of open source contributors making contributions in C= or C++ over the past decade. You=E2=80=99ll see that there are now more tha= n three times as many C++ developers as C contributing to open source projec= ts (I=E2=80=99m ignoring the last few months where it looks as if C programm= ers all gave up and went home, I presume there=E2=80=99s an error in the und= erlying data). >=20 > For Rust, the situation is more complicated. Hiring good Rust developers i= s harder than hiring C developers (there are no Rust developers with ten yea= rs experience because the language isn=E2=80=99t that old, and even though a= lot of people are learning it, there=E2=80=99s a lot of inertia). This chan= ges a lot when you look at the open source ecosystem because the fact that R= ust is new and came from the open-source world skews the people who learn it= towards open source and towards wanting to practice the language that they=E2= =80=99ve learned. Here=E2=80=99s the same graph with Rust added: >=20 > https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontribut= ors&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%= 255B%255D=3Drust&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate >=20 > Note that there are still fewer Rust developers than C, but they=E2=80=99r= e increasing and they tend to be more enthusiastic contributors. >=20 > David --Apple-Mail-1E071F8D-02F9-4215-80E5-9F451BA22255 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Bah= , I failed at copying and pasting the links. Here are the correct links to t= he graphs:</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">C and C++ contri= butors:</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://= openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributors&am= p;language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language= _name%255B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate">https://openhub.net/languages/comp= are?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributors&language_name%255B%255D=3D= c&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&com= mit=3DUpdate</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div>= <div dir=3D"ltr">And with Rust:</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"= ltr"><a href=3D"https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&m= easure=3Dcontributors&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B= %255D=3Dcpp&language_name%255B%255D=3Drust&language_name%255B%255D=3D= -1&commit=3DUpdate">https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%= 93&measure=3Dcontributors&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_n= ame%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%255B%255D=3Drust&language_name%255= B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate</a></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir= =3D"ltr">David</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div dir= =3D"ltr"></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 4 Sep 2024, at 08:43, David Chis= nall <theraven@freebsd.org> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquo= te type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<meta http-equiv=3D"content-type"= content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"l= tr">On 4 Sep 2024, at 07:35, lain. <lain@fair.moe> wrote:</div><div di= r=3D"ltr"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D= "cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>About C developers being in decline, I actuall= y disagree with that.</span><br><span>I have seen younger generations gettin= g interested in C the more they</span><br><span>get overwhelmed by the amoun= t of new languages to chose from.</span></div></blockquote><br><div>This doe= s not reflect my experience in hiring, the data I=E2=80=99ve seen from a maj= or tech company, or the trends in open source contributions.</div><div><br><= /div><div>It is far easier to hire C++ developers than C developers. This sh= ift started a bit after C++11 was released and has continued. </div><di= v><br></div><div>This trend is reflected in open source. Here is the OpenHub= graph:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://openhub.net/languages/co= mpare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributors&language_name%255B%255= D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&= ;language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&commit=3D= Update">https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3D= contributors&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc= pp&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&lan= guage_name%255B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate</a></div><div><br></div><div>T= his shows the number of open source contributors making contributions in C o= r C++ over the past decade. You=E2=80=99ll see that there are now more than t= hree times as many C++ developers as C contributing to open source projects (= I=E2=80=99m ignoring the last few months where it looks as if C programmers a= ll gave up and went home, I presume there=E2=80=99s an error in the underlyi= ng data).</div><div><br></div><div>For Rust, the situation is more complicat= ed. Hiring good Rust developers is harder than hiring C developers (there ar= e no Rust developers with ten years experience because the language isn=E2=80= =99t that old, and even though a lot of people are learning it, there=E2=80=99= s a lot of inertia). This changes a lot when you look at the open source eco= system because the fact that Rust is new and came from the open-source world= skews the people who learn it towards open source and towards wanting to pr= actice the language that they=E2=80=99ve learned. Here=E2=80=99s the same gr= aph with Rust added:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://openhub.net= /languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributors&language_= name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%255B%= 255D=3Drust&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate">https://op= enhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributors&= language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_n= ame%255B%255D=3Drust&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate</a= ></div><div><br></div><div>Note that there are still fewer Rust developers t= han C, but they=E2=80=99re increasing and they tend to be more enthusiastic c= ontributors.</div><div><br></div><div>David</div></div></blockquote></body><= /html>= --Apple-Mail-1E071F8D-02F9-4215-80E5-9F451BA22255--
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