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Date:      Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:37:46 +0930
From:      Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To:        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Cc:        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?)
Message-ID:  <19980630153746.V1880@freebie.lemis.com>
In-Reply-To: <199806300547.XAA24892@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:47:31PM -0600
References:  <19980630132454.S1880@freebie.lemis.com> <199806300547.XAA24892@softweyr.com>

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On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 23:47:31 -0600, Wes Peters wrote:
> My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying:
>
>> On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 21:45:36 -0600, Wes Peters wrote:
>>> My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying:
>>>
>>>> 1.  Forced abortion and forced sterilization.  For Christians, of
>>>>     course, an abomination.  In China, quite possibly law.  Yes, I can
>>>>     believe they do this.  After seeing what has happened in the 30
>>>>     years between my two visits to India, I can understand the Chinese
>>>>     view.
>>>
>>> There are absolute wrongs in this life, and the killing of innocents
>>> is at the top of the list.
>>
>> Well, we could discuss that, but let's take it for now.  OK.  Based on
>> that logic, which is worse: killing a thousand innocents or a million?
>
> Neither.  It's a binary function, like being pregnant.

I beg to differ.  I think most people would.

>>>> 2.  "Simply killed outright".  Did she bring documentation of this as
>>>>     well?  How often?  Where?  Why?  If they had the power to kill,
>>>>     they had the power to anaesthetize and sterilize.
>>>
>>> Yes, she did.  It apparently happened "several times" in her tenure, with
>>> women who were so hysterical the clinic staff could not deal with them.  %
> The
>>> clinic staff called the police, and the police killed these women.  This %
> was
>>> apparently done to discourage violent resistance.  These killings were
>>> apparently documented in the medical records of these women kept by the
>>> clinic.
>>
>> Hmm.  Where?
>
> You didn't read my original posting.  She managed to bring several years of
> records from the clinic with her.  This was all recorded in the official
> records of the clinic, even the deaths of two of the women she alleged were
> killed by police.

Sure I read your message, though you didn't use the word "two" before.
My question was in a geographical sense.  Where did all this happen?
In the USA you'd immediately see a difference between Massachusetts,
South Carolina, Miami, Salt Lake City or Los Angeles.  It's the same
in China.

>> Hmm.  At this stage I can't see a big difference between police
>> shooting hysterical women and the "accidental" fatal police shootings
>> which happen more often than people would like to admit even in
>> countries with good human rights records.
>
> Yeah, we've had a rash of those around here this year.  One teenage girl was
> shot to death as her compatriots in car theft jumped over a fence.  She got
> stuck on the fence and jumped back down on the side where the police were
> chasing her, with a "weapon" in her hand.  The "weapon" turned out to be a
> hair brush, for which she died.  That pretty much puts the Salt Lake County
> sheriff's department on firm footing along with the state police in China, as
> far as I'm concerned.  One of the big differences is that here we can, and
> WILL, get the sonofabitch thrown out of office.  It's nice to have a publicly
> sanctioned revolution every 4 or 6 years.
>
> A major difference in the Chinese case was the women who were shot at the
> clinic were confined in a cage in the clinic at the time; they certainly
> weren't threatening the police officials in any way locked in a cage.

Details.  It's a binary function: in each case a police official
overstepped his responsibilities.  One of these days they'll get round
to calling them to justice, even in China.

Greg
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