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Date:      Mon, 3 Mar 2003 00:23:31 +0100
From:      Cliff Sarginson <cls@willow.raggedclown.intra>
To:        FreeBSD Questions <FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject:   Re: Portupgrade -- revisited
Message-ID:  <20030302232331.GD1066@willow.raggedclown.intra>
In-Reply-To: <200303021447.51087.kstewart@owt.com>
References:  <20030302192233.GA326@willow.raggedclown.intra> <200303021533.49566.taxman@acd.net> <20030302223753.GB1066@willow.raggedclown.intra> <200303021447.51087.kstewart@owt.com>

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On Sun, Mar 02, 2003 at 02:47:51PM -0800, Kent Stewart wrote:
> On Sunday 02 March 2003 02:37 pm, Cliff Sarginson wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 02, 2003 at 03:33:49PM -0500, taxman wrote:
> > > On Sunday 02 March 2003 02:22 pm, Cliff Sarginson wrote:
> > > > At the risk of being accused of a complainer.
> > > > I will state here that my experiments in the use of portupgrade,
> > > > have left me without a useable X system.
> > > > Guess it is back to the CD's.
> > > > Will the ports maintainers *please* make sure they release
> > > > compilable ports..especially for the big mothers like X/KDE.
> > >
> > > Cliff, it's worked fine for me.  I installed all of KDE3 from
> > > ports.  Got virtually no errors, but I did do it by uninstalling
> > > almost all of my installed ports.  So yes portupgrade for something
> > > that large did not work. Try making packages out of what ports you
> > > have installed.  Then uninstalling and reinstalling them shouldn't
> > > be too bad.
> > > 	And you've got to understand the complexity problems involved
> > > here.  There are 8200 or so ports right now.  Each has as many as
> > > 60 dependencies (like kde).  This creates an incredible web that is
> > > very difficult to keep working. The ports maintainers do a great
> > > job of this in fact.

I agree !
I am not really complaining about their work, I think that the
infrastructure is indaequate.
Let me be quite clear on this. I think the ports system is very very
good. But what is not very very good is the ways mortals have to use it.
This is a very complex piece of software engineering, nothing comes
close to it, maybe Debian's apt is close. And it is because it is
conceptually so good, it gets a lot of criticism, because the tools do
not work very well.

> > > 	What is nearly impossible is to have it work perfectly for every
> > > given individual installation that may have many thousands of
> > > individual configuration changes, versions, old binary, source
> > > cruft lying around. So as mentioned before, problems could easily
> > > be due to stuff only you have on your system.  Try building in a
> > > clean environment.  If you get the same error in a clean
> > > environment then a clear message to the port maintainer with how to
> > > repeat the problem is the only way for them to get it working.  It
> > > doesn't involve knowing how to code in the given language, just
> > > useful error messages.
> > > 	An "it doesn't work" is useless and does fall into the complainer
> > > side, even if you're not trying to.
> > >

Well I am trying to be constructive. Not just a compainer...although it
sounds that way (having spent 2 unsuccessful days trying to get the
latest KDE ports installed).

> > > Try that and then ask questions if you can't get something working.
> > >
> > > Tim
> >
> > I know, you are right. A complaint in a vacuum is useless,  I should
> > know better. All I can say is I *wanted* it to work :)
> > But (big B) I am using this on a very ordinary computer. It is my
> > personal part of the network. No big deals. Of course the whole ports
> > system has mind bogglinging complications with something like KDE.
> > But (another big B)..I did clean the whole situation up, and still
> > stuff will not compile, and not just lib/linking errors .. which are
> > kind of understandable, but syntax errors in the C(++) code. Now that
> > is wrong. Linking errors are as inevitable as the weather, compilaton
> > errors are not. Anyway I will shut up now, just a lover's tiff with
> > FreeBSD, won't end in divorce.
> 
> Do you have ports refused? Are you rebuilding INDEX and INDEX.db 
> everytime you cvsup ports-all. Refuses are known to break the "make 
> index".

Yes I have refuse, I do not speak Japanese or Korean, and I have no
interest in "palms".

It boils down to this, I could not use portupgrade to install the latest
X, because of a missing manual page. So I made the port by using "make
-k", and it worked. This is not how it should be.

I will think about it.

-- 
Regards
   Cliff

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