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Date:      Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:31:48 +0200 (SAST)
From:      Willie Viljoen <will@laserfence.net>
To:        Robert Watson <rwatson@freebsd.org>
Cc:        Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, <freebsd-fs@freebsd.org>, <freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: Soft update instability with heavy IO and offboard IDE controller
Message-ID:  <20020324162943.L307-100000@phoenix.vh.laserfence.net>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96L.1020324092025.47668V-100000@fledge.watson.org>

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Well yes, there was a panic and reboot without power loss... the system
first starts exhiting odd behavour, one of the error messages I've seen is
similar to free inode /usr/197492 had 28 blocks

After a while, the kernel panics and attempts to sync disks, and usually
gives up on several buffers.

This isn't normal, I think, but the problem seems to dissapear when I turn
off write caching.

Once I have the time (and some extra cash) to experiment, I might try a
few different IDE controllers and see if the problem occurs with all of
them. I know the drive is fine, since I have several of the same model
drives on other machines which do not exhibit this behavour, but which run
at ATA-66 because they all have oldish controllers.

Will

On Sun, 24 Mar 2002, Robert Watson wrote:

>
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote:
>
> > Robert Watson wrote:
> > > On Sat, 23 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > > > Disable write caching on the drives.  THis is a FAQ.
> > >
> > > Hmm.  I thought the wc bit should only affect this sort of scenario in the
> > > event that the system was actually powered off; otherwise, the hard disk
> > > can still flush to disk gradually as it.  From the description, it seems
> > > the system panics, but power is never removed from the drives.  That said,
> > > I wouldn't be surprised if the problem goes away on the basis that this
> > > will substantially change system behavior for performance reasons, hiding
> > > whatever subtle bug it is :-).
> >
> > The drive lies about commiting data to stable storage.  This blows away
> > all the hard work soft updates does trying to ensure ordering.
>
> Yes, but that failure is only exposed to the operating system if the drive
> fails to actually write the data, which to my understanding, occurs only
> when there is a power loss to the drive.  Otherwise, that inconsistency is
> never exposed because the drive guarantees that the data eventually makes
> it to the disk, and the version of the data exposed to the operating
> system is consistent with the operating system's expectations.  In the
> submitted scenario, it sounded like there had been a panic and a reboot,
> but that the power had never been shut down to the drive.  In that
> scenario, I would expect that the drive would present a consistent view to
> the OS on start-up, suggesting that the software failure involved in the
> panic might have been involved in generating the inconsistencies, or that
> there is a softupdates bug (the suggestion of the submitter).  I.e., I
> don't think write caching is involved in this particular instance.
>
> I have to say that my answer on the ATA write caching is a UPS. :-)
>
> Robert N M Watson             FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project
> robert@fledge.watson.org      NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services
>
>
>
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>
>
>

-- 
Willie Viljoen
Private IT Consultant

214 Paul Kruger Avenue
Universitas
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9321

South Africa

+27 51 522 15 60, a/h +27 51 522 44 36
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will@laserfence.net


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