Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 16:01:28 -0400 From: "Gerard E. Seibert" <jerry@seibercom.net> To: "User Questions" <questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <20230412160128.00005bd4@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSij9j922Nvv1Vhn43HznwpyGT99UZsU674G9hHWzR=UhvQ@mail.gmail.com> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200, Mario Marietto stated: > ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. I have read several articles that state Docker can run on MS Windows. If that is true, and I have not seen anything that disproves it, then it can run on technologies other than those found in the Linux kernel. =20 > I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on > FreeBSD. For sure,not using the same technology that it uses on > Linux. FreeBSD does not use the kernel of Linux,so it cannot lean on > it,but I'm sure that it can lean on a lot of linux features that have > already been implemented on FreeBSD. Maybe they should be improved. > And on some other technologies that can be created almost from > scratch. In my opinion Docker does not work in FreeBSD not for > technical reasons. I'm sure that the technical problems can be solved > if there is the will,the need to overcome them. Honestly I think it > doesn't happen because there are habits and internal beliefs in every > group of OS developers. I'm talking about a certain type of > closed-mindedness and sense of belonging in a group that you don't > want to be scratched by tools that come from other types of OS > cultures. Docker is not needed in FreeBSD because there are already > similar tools that are working well and many systems engineers have > spent time and money to learn how to administer them. If docker were > implemented, these system administrators would continue to use their > favorite tools (jails), even in the industry / market there are just > as many well done. Probably a very few FreeBSD admins even want an > influx of users from linux who could switch to freebsd because of > that tool that wasn't there before but "now" it is there. >=20 > On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> > wrote: >=20 > > Hi Mario, > > > > I may not have been clear enough in my last email. > > > > Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on > > technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > > > FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails. > > > > It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special > > than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible. > > > > If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the > > internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let > > you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's > > Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux > > kernel to run properly. > > > > A better approach, if the applications you want to run are > > available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to > > run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like > > Bastille ( https://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot > > (https://github.com/bsdpot/pot). > > > > I hope some of this helps. > > > > Tim > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote: > > > > ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > > yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are > > many FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large > > pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different > > situations. > > > > But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer > > means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good > > when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need > > to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried > > it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those > > tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure > > there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The > > development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And > > the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical > > reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of > > discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using > > its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money > > to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This > > mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that > > could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another > > OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM > > running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why > > should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool > > is not widely used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are > > talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools. > > > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto > > <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one > > of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers > > that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, > > whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. > > I'm a frequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read > > opinions radicalized on linux technologies that should not enter > > the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are already > > excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but why > > not add more and different tools that which would allow the > > creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber > > <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote: > > > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > > > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > > > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if > > > you have chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it > > > sounds like a discriminatory attitude. > > > > I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people > > here; please don't do that. > > > > The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a > > standards-based "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ > > definition, and many people have worked across the standard, the > > implementation, kernel, & tooling, now in ports on FreeBSD, to make > > this possible. Just a few examples: > > > > - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ > > - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ > > - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 > > > > It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what > > you tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. > > > > While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this > > tooling, systemd and other linux-specific things could be present > > in any container you pull, from systemd, to filesystem > > requirements, and expecting all of these to work seamlessly is > > unrealistic. > > > > If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, > > use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic > > people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > > > A+ > > Dave > > > > > > > > -- > > Mario. > > > > > > > > -- > > Mario. > > > > > > >=20
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