Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 15:40:29 +0200 From: Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info> To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> Cc: Konstantin Belousov <kostikbel@gmail.com>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <CAFYkXjn_=%2BrUX0DexnSB2DrGJ=Statckmbav7q6pje561f-R6w@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <202408041009.474A9ZXW048024@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <CAOtMX2hAUiWdGPtpaCJLPZB%2Bj2yzNw5DSjUmkwTi%2B%2BmyemehCA@mail.gmail.com> <vdmg5zocd6wqcwc2bvzvzqn4bii2pwdc2r4mgnisukfkboj6nf@f7lv5quu4fjx> <CAOtMX2iDK3uN_oQgzzZAdoOZCfNsnvpefeZvKoTCRmPBhZywzA@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfqB1%2B-8BkpKwKoCM%2BzM4mCOFy63yHr1Pco7MnT1DFkb4w@mail.gmail.com> <knnsh327gxyvaajwrymvflnivf3tsnigyqw2d6etfhb4irft3x@ydkh3zmb6uch> <CANCZdfoHjYUDeNo78qk6BjHfRgwgDbuuVjD5D9uG6tyCk81-ew@mail.gmail.com> <Zq69w1D7aYRiNdPx@kib.kiev.ua> <202408041009.474A9ZXW048024@critter.freebsd.dk>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 12:10 Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote: > -------- > Konstantin Belousov writes: > > On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 11:36:52AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > [...] > > > These are the things to think about. We don't need to solve all of > > > them, but the Rust ecosystem is quite a bit different than the C > ecosystem > > > in the details of a number of these points, so we have to address them > > > if we want to use Rust in base with the same traits as all the other > bits > > > in base today (or we need to have a thoughtful discussion on paradigm > > > shift and settle on that). [...] > > > > [...] > > > > Instead of starting with integration into the build system, lets decide > > which useful things can we implement in Rust. Lets ignore the problems > > of integrating (not yet written) code into the build, the problem of > > crates that should be vendored, etc. > > Stop. > > Just Stop! > > Let me address kib@'s argument first: > > Until we recognize the difference between "a programming language" and > "an ecosystem" these debates will lead nowhere. > > If we continue ignore that crucial difference, we will be repeating > our prior mistakes instead of learning from them. > > Back in the mists of time we imported Perl into the base system, > based on arguments /identical/ to what we hear now about Rust. > > Importing Perl almost instantly turned into a disaster. > > We had overlooked that Perl was not just a programming language, > it was an ecosystem of a language /and/ an rapidly exploding number > of Perl Modules from everybody and everywhere. (..) +1 :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info [-- Attachment #2 --] <div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 12:10 Poul-Henning Kamp <<a href="mailto:phk@phk.freebsd.dk">phk@phk.freebsd.dk</a>> wrote:<br></div><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">--------<br> Konstantin Belousov writes:<br> > On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 11:36:52AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:<br> > > [...]<br> > > These are the things to think about. We don't need to solve all of<br> > > them, but the Rust ecosystem is quite a bit different than the C ecosystem<br> > > in the details of a number of these points, so we have to address them<br> > > if we want to use Rust in base with the same traits as all the other bits<br> > > in base today (or we need to have a thoughtful discussion on paradigm<br> > > shift and settle on that). [...]<br> ><br> > [...]<br> ><br> > Instead of starting with integration into the build system, lets decide<br> > which useful things can we implement in Rust. Lets ignore the problems<br> > of integrating (not yet written) code into the build, the problem of<br> > crates that should be vendored, etc.<br> <br> Stop.<br> <br> Just Stop!<br> <br> Let me address kib@'s argument first:<br> <br> Until we recognize the difference between "a programming language" and<br> "an ecosystem" these debates will lead nowhere.<br> <br> If we continue ignore that crucial difference, we will be repeating<br> our prior mistakes instead of learning from them.<br> <br> Back in the mists of time we imported Perl into the base system,<br> based on arguments /identical/ to what we hear now about Rust.<br> <br> Importing Perl almost instantly turned into a disaster.<br> <br> We had overlooked that Perl was not just a programming language,<br> it was an ecosystem of a language /and/ an rapidly exploding number<br> of Perl Modules from everybody and everywhere.</blockquote></div><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> (..)</blockquote></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">+1 :-)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">--</div><div dir="auto">CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, <a href="http://www.tomek.cedro.info">http://www.tomek.cedro.info</a></div><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"></div></div>
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