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Date:      Sun, 4 Aug 2024 15:40:29 +0200
From:      Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info>
To:        Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>
Cc:        Konstantin Belousov <kostikbel@gmail.com>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>,  Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system)
Message-ID:  <CAFYkXjn_=%2BrUX0DexnSB2DrGJ=Statckmbav7q6pje561f-R6w@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <202408041009.474A9ZXW048024@critter.freebsd.dk>
References:  <CAOtMX2hAUiWdGPtpaCJLPZB%2Bj2yzNw5DSjUmkwTi%2B%2BmyemehCA@mail.gmail.com> <vdmg5zocd6wqcwc2bvzvzqn4bii2pwdc2r4mgnisukfkboj6nf@f7lv5quu4fjx> <CAOtMX2iDK3uN_oQgzzZAdoOZCfNsnvpefeZvKoTCRmPBhZywzA@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfqB1%2B-8BkpKwKoCM%2BzM4mCOFy63yHr1Pco7MnT1DFkb4w@mail.gmail.com> <knnsh327gxyvaajwrymvflnivf3tsnigyqw2d6etfhb4irft3x@ydkh3zmb6uch> <CANCZdfoHjYUDeNo78qk6BjHfRgwgDbuuVjD5D9uG6tyCk81-ew@mail.gmail.com> <Zq69w1D7aYRiNdPx@kib.kiev.ua> <202408041009.474A9ZXW048024@critter.freebsd.dk>

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On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 12:10 Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> --------
> Konstantin Belousov writes:
> > On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 11:36:52AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > These are the things to think about. We don't need to solve all of
> > > them, but the Rust ecosystem is quite a bit different than the C
> ecosystem
> > > in the details of a number of these points, so we have to address them
> > > if we want to use Rust in base with the same traits as all the other
> bits
> > > in base today (or we need to have a thoughtful discussion on paradigm
> > > shift and settle on that). [...]
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Instead of starting with integration into the build system, lets decide
> > which useful things can we implement in Rust.  Lets ignore the problems
> > of integrating (not yet written) code into the build, the problem of
> > crates that should be vendored, etc.
>
> Stop.
>
> Just Stop!
>
> Let me address kib@'s argument first:
>
> Until we recognize the difference between "a programming language" and
> "an ecosystem" these debates will lead nowhere.
>
> If we continue ignore that crucial difference, we will be repeating
> our prior mistakes instead of learning from them.
>
> Back in the mists of time we imported Perl into the base system,
> based on arguments /identical/ to what we hear now about Rust.
>
> Importing Perl almost instantly turned into a disaster.
>
> We had overlooked that Perl was not just a programming language,
> it was an ecosystem of a language /and/ an rapidly exploding number
> of Perl Modules from everybody and everywhere.

(..)


+1 :-)

--
CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 12:10 Poul-Henning=
 Kamp &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phk@phk.freebsd.dk">phk@phk.freebsd.dk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">--------<br>
Konstantin Belousov writes:<br>
&gt; On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 11:36:52AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; [...]<br>
&gt; &gt; These are the things to think about. We don&#39;t need to solve a=
ll of<br>
&gt; &gt; them, but the Rust ecosystem is quite a bit different than the C =
ecosystem<br>
&gt; &gt; in the details of a number of these points, so we have to address=
 them<br>
&gt; &gt; if we want to use Rust in base with the same traits as all the ot=
her bits<br>
&gt; &gt; in base today (or we need to have a thoughtful discussion on para=
digm<br>
&gt; &gt; shift and settle on that). [...]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [...]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Instead of starting with integration into the build system, lets decid=
e<br>
&gt; which useful things can we implement in Rust.=C2=A0 Lets ignore the pr=
oblems<br>
&gt; of integrating (not yet written) code into the build, the problem of<b=
r>
&gt; crates that should be vendored, etc.<br>
<br>
Stop.<br>
<br>
Just Stop!<br>
<br>
Let me address kib@&#39;s argument first:<br>
<br>
Until we recognize the difference between &quot;a programming language&quot=
; and<br>
&quot;an ecosystem&quot; these debates will lead nowhere.<br>
<br>
If we continue ignore that crucial difference, we will be repeating<br>
our prior mistakes instead of learning from them.<br>
<br>
Back in the mists of time we imported Perl into the base system,<br>
based on arguments /identical/ to what we hear now about Rust.<br>
<br>
Importing Perl almost instantly turned into a disaster.<br>
<br>
We had overlooked that Perl was not just a programming language,<br>
it was an ecosystem of a language /and/ an rapidly exploding number<br>
of Perl Modules from everybody and everywhere.</blockquote></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">
(..)</blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">+1 :-)=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">--</div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, <a href=3D"http://www.tomek.cedro.info">http://www.tome=
k.cedro.info</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"></div></div>

--000000000000ee83f5061edbb448--



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