Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:47:08 -0800 From: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu, Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Pete Wright <pete@nomadlogic.org>, "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Baptiste Daroussin <bapt@freebsd.org>, Niclas Zeising <zeising@freebsd.org>, "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Stefan Blachmann <sblachmann@gmail.com>, Vladimir Kondratyev <vladimir@kondratyev.su> Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? Message-ID: <FAF81206-1D1B-41B5-8677-56DEB42A0E4A@cschubert.com> In-Reply-To: <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <201902181650.x1IGoRsZ006131@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> <362D8283-0B7D-402F-99CD-657021597955@cschubert.com> <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>
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On February 19, 2019 9:35:54 AM PST, Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> wrote: >On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 08:17:48AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: >> On February 18, 2019 9:17:37 AM PST, Pete Wright ><pete@nomadlogic.org> wrote: >> > >> > >> >On 2/18/19 8:50 AM, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:12 AM Rodney W. Grimes < >> >>> >> >>> I don't know. I think the fact that drm2 doesn't support anything >> >newer >> >>> than 5-year-old hardware is a pretty convincing evidence that the >> >old way >> >>> is broken and doesn't work. >> >> But it DOES work, I am pretty sure we have 1000's of users on that >5 >> >year >> >> old hardware that are totally happy with the intree DRM2 that is >in >> >stable/12, >> >> and some of whom have ventured into head/13 are having issues with >> >thete a >> >> "new" model (ie kmod broken by a base commit). I know that there >is >> >wip >> >> to get CI coverage for that, but wip is wip, and we need to start >> >changing >> >> the cart horse driver order we keep doing and get things right. >Port >> >> up and working, with CI testing *before* we go remove kmod'ed code >> >from >> >> base would be a much more appropriate path. >> >> >> >> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of >things >> >> simply on the "5 year old" basis. Not everyone, and infact few >now >> >> a days other than corporate buyers, can afford new hardware, >> >> giving the minimal performance increase in systems over the last 5 >> >> years the cost/benifit factor of a new computer is just too low. >> >I've put a lot of effort helping test and document how to get a >usable >> >desktop environment on a modern laptop. there were two issues which > >> >motivated me to do this: >> > >> >1) my observation that many developers at conferences and online >were >> >using macOS as their primary desktop environment. when comparing >this >> >to the OpenBSD and Linux community I felt pretty embarrassed, but it >> >did >> >explain the stagnant nature of our graphics subsystem. people >seemed >> >afraid to touch things due the brittle nature of its hardware >support. >> >> I noticed this too. And every time it struck me as odd. >> >> > >> >2) i was in need to an *affordable* machine with a warranty. >> >fortunately >> >there are many affordable laptops at staples, best-buy and amazon - >but >> > >> >they were all post haswell systems, rendering them basically useless > >> >from a FreeBSD perspective. >> >> Which is why removing drm2 was necessary. >> >> > >> >after trying to get traction to update the in-tree drm subsystem i >was >> >lucky enough to sync up with the graphics team which was working on >> >syncing things up with modern hardware support. because of that i'm >> >now >> >able to get my small startup pretty much all on board with FreeBSD. >i >> >use it on my workstations as well as on or server infrastructure >> >(physical and AWS). i would consider this a success for our >community >> >as it's opened up the eyes to a whole new generation of devs to >> >FreeBSD. >> > >> >one thing missing from all of these arguments is real data. how >many >> >people are on haswell era hardware? i can tell from my experience >the >> >past several years the number of people who have post-haswell gear >seem >> > >> >to be more numerous, or at least more vocal (and frankly easier to >work >> > >> >with while squashing bugs). >> > >> >i can also say that personally it would be great to improve support >for >> > >> >systems requiring drm2 - but that gear is hard to come by, so we are > >> >really dependent on helpful collaboration from those who are being >> >effected. >> >> Drm2 is not required. My current laptop is 5 years old, an HD3000. >The previous one is 13 years old, i915. Both work perfectly with >drm-current on 13-current. Franky, I don't see what the fuss is about. >> >> > >My Dell Latitude D530 running i386 freebsd, which used the >i915kms.ko now locks up solid with drm-legacy-kmod. The PAE vs >non-PAE i386/conf/pmap.h merger in r342567 broke drm-legacy-kmod. >It seems that Niclas has provided a patch that fixes the building >of drm-legacy-kmod. > >Doing a bisection on /usr/src commits is fairly slow as it >takes a day to build world/kernel and the minimum set of ports >need to fire up Xorg. r343543 and earlier appear to work fine >with drm-legacy-kmod. > >I have now lost 2 weeks of hacking time that could have been spent >on the missing C99 complex math routines. Yeah, I know very few >people care about numerical simulations on FreeBSD. Going down an unexpected rabbit hole is frustrating. -- Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use. Cheers, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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