Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:47:08 -0800 From: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu, Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Pete Wright <pete@nomadlogic.org>, "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Baptiste Daroussin <bapt@freebsd.org>, Niclas Zeising <zeising@freebsd.org>, "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Stefan Blachmann <sblachmann@gmail.com>, Vladimir Kondratyev <vladimir@kondratyev.su> Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? Message-ID: <FAF81206-1D1B-41B5-8677-56DEB42A0E4A@cschubert.com> In-Reply-To: <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <201902181650.x1IGoRsZ006131@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> <362D8283-0B7D-402F-99CD-657021597955@cschubert.com> <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>
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On February 19, 2019 9:35:54 AM PST, Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask=2Eapl=2Ewas= hington=2Eedu> wrote: >On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 08:17:48AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: >> On February 18, 2019 9:17:37 AM PST, Pete Wright ><pete@nomadlogic=2Eorg> wrote: >> > >> > >> >On 2/18/19 8:50 AM, Rodney W=2E Grimes wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:12 AM Rodney W=2E Grimes < >> >>> >> >>> I don't know=2E I think the fact that drm2 doesn't support anything >> >newer >> >>> than 5-year-old hardware is a pretty convincing evidence that the >> >old way >> >>> is broken and doesn't work=2E >> >> But it DOES work, I am pretty sure we have 1000's of users on that >5 >> >year >> >> old hardware that are totally happy with the intree DRM2 that is >in >> >stable/12, >> >> and some of whom have ventured into head/13 are having issues with >> >thete a >> >> "new" model (ie kmod broken by a base commit)=2E I know that there >is >> >wip >> >> to get CI coverage for that, but wip is wip, and we need to start >> >changing >> >> the cart horse driver order we keep doing and get things right=2E=20 >Port >> >> up and working, with CI testing *before* we go remove kmod'ed code >> >from >> >> base would be a much more appropriate path=2E >> >> >> >> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of >things >> >> simply on the "5 year old" basis=2E Not everyone, and infact few >now >> >> a days other than corporate buyers, can afford new hardware, >> >> giving the minimal performance increase in systems over the last 5 >> >> years the cost/benifit factor of a new computer is just too low=2E >> >I've put a lot of effort helping test and document how to get a >usable=20 >> >desktop environment on a modern laptop=2E=C2=A0 there were two issues = which > >> >motivated me to do this: >> > >> >1) my observation that many developers at conferences and online >were=20 >> >using macOS as their primary desktop environment=2E=C2=A0 when compari= ng >this=20 >> >to the OpenBSD and Linux community I felt pretty embarrassed, but it >> >did=20 >> >explain the stagnant nature of our graphics subsystem=2E=C2=A0 people >seemed=20 >> >afraid to touch things due the brittle nature of its hardware >support=2E >>=20 >> I noticed this too=2E And every time it struck me as odd=2E >>=20 >> > >> >2) i was in need to an *affordable* machine with a warranty=2E >> >fortunately=20 >> >there are many affordable laptops at staples, best-buy and amazon - >but >> > >> >they were all post haswell systems, rendering them basically useless > >> >from a FreeBSD perspective=2E >>=20 >> Which is why removing drm2 was necessary=2E=20 >>=20 >> > >> >after trying to get traction to update the in-tree drm subsystem i >was=20 >> >lucky enough to sync up with the graphics team which was working on=20 >> >syncing things up with modern hardware support=2E=C2=A0 because of tha= t i'm >> >now=20 >> >able to get my small startup pretty much all on board with FreeBSD=2E= =C2=A0 >i=20 >> >use it on my workstations as well as on or server infrastructure=20 >> >(physical and AWS)=2E=C2=A0 i would consider this a success for our >community=20 >> >as it's opened up the eyes to a whole new generation of devs to >> >FreeBSD=2E >> > >> >one thing missing from all of these arguments is real data=2E=C2=A0 ho= w >many=20 >> >people are on haswell era hardware?=C2=A0 i can tell from my experienc= e >the=20 >> >past several years the number of people who have post-haswell gear >seem >> > >> >to be more numerous, or at least more vocal (and frankly easier to >work >> > >> >with while squashing bugs)=2E >> > >> >i can also say that personally it would be great to improve support >for >> > >> >systems requiring drm2 - but that gear is hard to come by, so we are > >> >really dependent on helpful collaboration from those who are being >> >effected=2E >>=20 >> Drm2 is not required=2E My current laptop is 5 years old, an HD3000=2E >The previous one is 13 years old, i915=2E Both work perfectly with >drm-current on 13-current=2E Franky, I don't see what the fuss is about= =2E >>=20 >>=20 > >My Dell Latitude D530 running i386 freebsd, which used the >i915kms=2Eko now locks up solid with drm-legacy-kmod=2E The PAE vs >non-PAE i386/conf/pmap=2Eh merger in r342567 broke drm-legacy-kmod=2E >It seems that Niclas has provided a patch that fixes the building >of drm-legacy-kmod=2E > >Doing a bisection on /usr/src commits is fairly slow as it >takes a day to build world/kernel and the minimum set of ports >need to fire up Xorg=2E r343543 and earlier appear to work fine >with drm-legacy-kmod=2E > >I have now lost 2 weeks of hacking time that could have been spent >on the missing C99 complex math routines=2E Yeah, I know very few >people care about numerical simulations on FreeBSD=2E=20 Going down an unexpected rabbit hole is frustrating=2E --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert <Cy=2ESchubert@cschubert=2Ecom> FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD=2Eorg> Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E
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