Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:51:25 +0100 From: Jona Joachim <walkingshadow@grummel.net> To: Szilveszter Adam <sziszi@bsd.hu> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: allBSD's "Stop the Blob" Campaign Message-ID: <20070319125125.5f319d66@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20070319053226.GA1131@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx> References: <20070317024923.6d035a41@localhost> <86k5xf91pz.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317205350.70f6ecf1@localhost> <86ejnn39e6.fsf@dwp.des.no> <45FC4F45.5030207@skosi.org> <86648z38ct.fsf@dwp.des.no> <20070317221241.13cb1429@localhost> <45FDC2AE.6010608@praxisvermittlung24.de> <20070319021903.6e6b93b4@localhost> <20070319053226.GA1131@baranyfelhocske.buza.adamsfamily.xx>
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--Sig_MYeI4ve0s2YMlqO8yxEzWci Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 19 Mar 2007 06:32:26 +0100 Szilveszter Adam <sziszi@bsd.hu> wrote: > I tread very carefully here, after all, the area is full of dead > horses and I might accidentally commit violence against some of them > by beating them up some more... >=20 > On Mon, Mar 19, 2007 at 02:19:03AM +0100, Jona Joachim wrote: > > I followed the discussion on openbsd-misc, that's why I started this > > thread, to hear what the FreeBSD folks have to say about it. > > It's really unfortunate that FreeBSD-GENERIC ships with that whole > > bunch of blobs IMHO. Open source projects that distribute > > proprietary software bite their own tail. > > I think we agree on the fact that blobs are bad and a lot of other > > FreeBSD users share that same opinion. > > It would be interesting to hear what the leaders of the projects > > have to say about this. Is it more important to support hardware > > than to claim the right for free documentation? Are there other > > interests involved? > > Finally I'd like to remind everyone of the fact that not buying > > undocumented hardware is a good way to fight it. >=20 > I think you are quite misguided when you say that FreeBSD ships with a > whole bunch of blobs by default. This comes from the fact that - it > seems so to me - many people confuse binary closed-source drivers (the > ones that really can be could blobs) and closed-source *firmware*. But > the difference is quite there. >=20 > I do not think anyone should have anything against binary *firmware* > Just because firmware is no longer "soldered" into your hardware, but > needs to be loaded into it from your HDD every time, it still remains > firmware. Just because it is on your filesystem, it still remains > firmware. While there are some efforts to produce opensource firmware > for certain hardware, there is nothing wrong with using the "original" > closed-source one, this poses *no* threat to opensource developers or > users. Most of the "blobs" that DES listed in this thread are just > that: firmware. If you do not like that, fine, but then start by not > buying any machine that has a proprietary BIOS. That will somewhat > reduce the selection available to... uhm... yeah. To about 0. > Reflashing does not count. Yes, I know. I'm aware of three blob drivers that are frequently used on FreeBSD: the NVIDIA graphics driver, the Atheros HAL (could possibly be replaced by OpenHAL) and the Adaptec RAID driver. "A whole bunch" was perhaps a bit exaggerated but I think it's more a matter of principle than a matter of quantity. The fact that closed-source firmware is inevitable these days is not to be encouraged IMO, it's just a sad fact. But, as you mentioned, things are changing. > The "real" blobs are quite few on FreeBSD, because vendors do not see > enough incentive to develop drivers for FreeBSD yet mostly, not even > closed-source. The only prominent example would be the Nvidia drivers, > which are a) not in any way included by default b) are not required > for the operation of FreeBSD itself, but rather are for Xorg. You can > of course decide to not use those, but the simple reality is that for > some hardware, they are the only way to work somewhat ok. This is so > much so, that even Ubuntu decided to include the Nvidia and ATI blob > drivers by default into their next release instead of just by direct > request. If the vendors released their specs and provided appropriate documentation they wouldn't need to write drivers for *BSD or even Linux. A lot of developers would be more than happy to write good drivers with the help of the vendor instead of having to do reverse engineering. > So, even if someone does not like "blobs", they are quite well off on > FreeBSD. If you do not use the Nvidia drivers, you are mostly ok > unless you use some funky vendor-provided third-party stuff but then > it is not FreeBSD's but your responsibility. And no, do not let the > OpenBSD propagada mislead you: just because *firmware* is licensed > and cannot be freely distributed for some hardware, that does not > make it a "blob". I think I'm able to process information and make up my own opinion. Regards, Jona --=20 "I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and tell you that you are free." Eris, Goddess Of Chaos, Discord & Confusion --Sig_MYeI4ve0s2YMlqO8yxEzWci Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFF/nk9B0JBR/6d8XQRAj5oAKCdi3JdYQflhySJn9qdAjn5Ap9+3wCg29qW eXCDEhhJoturumc+H8WKeik= =thyS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_MYeI4ve0s2YMlqO8yxEzWci--
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