Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:19:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Barney Cordoba <barney_cordoba@yahoo.com> To: Luigi Rizzo <rizzo@iet.unipi.it>, "Alexander V. Chernikov" <melifaro@freebsd.org> Cc: "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>, Daniel Feenberg <feenberg@nber.org> Subject: Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC Message-ID: <1375035589.31637.YahooMailNeo@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <CA%2BhQ2%2BgQxdNM1o_rScuyPb_T9sm%2B=gEF1dUa5aknfUYrO4K9HA@mail.gmail.com> References: <51F0386D.2000709@acm.poly.edu> <51F16A07.9030505@FreeBSD.org> <1374852658.90079.YahooMailNeo@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51F2A313.9070105@FreeBSD.org> <alpine.LRH.2.03.1307261646050.25254@nber.org> <1374876857.42890.YahooMailNeo@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51F37E97.3090203@FreeBSD.org> <CA%2BhQ2%2BgQxdNM1o_rScuyPb_T9sm%2B=gEF1dUa5aknfUYrO4K9HA@mail.gmail.com>
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________________________________ From: Luigi Rizzo <rizzo@iet.unipi.it> To: Alexander V. Chernikov <melifaro@freebsd.org> Cc: Barney Cordoba <barney_cordoba@yahoo.com>; Daniel Feenberg <feenberg@nber.org>; "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" <freebsd-net@freebsd.org> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:15 AM Subject: Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Alexander V. Chernikov <melifaro@freebsd.org> wrote: > On 27.07.2013 02:14, Barney Cordoba wrote: >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* Daniel Feenberg <feenberg@nber.org> >> *To:* Alexander V. Chernikov <melifaro@FreeBSD.org> >> *Cc:* Barney Cordoba <barney_cordoba@yahoo.com>; >> "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" <freebsd-net@freebsd.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 4:59 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC >> >> >> On Fri, 26 Jul 2013, Alexander V. Chernikov wrote: >> >> > On 26.07.2013 19:30, Barney Cordoba wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Alexander V. Chernikov <melifaro@FreeBSD.org >> <mailto:melifaro@FreeBSD.org>> >> >> *To:* Boris Kochergin <spawk@acm.poly.edu <mailto:spawk@acm.poly.edu>> >> >> *Cc:* freebsd-net@freebsd.org <mailto:freebsd-net@freebsd.org> >> >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 2:10 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC >> >> >> >> On 25.07.2013 00:26, Boris Kochergin wrote: >> >> > Hi. >> >> Hello. >> >> > >> >> > I am looking for recommendations for a 10gbps NIC from someone who >> has >> >> > successfully used it on FreeBSD. It will be used on FreeBSD >> 9.1-R/amd64 >> >> > to capture packets. Some desired features are: >> >> > >> >> We have experience with HP NC523SFP and Chelsio N320E. The key difference >> among 10GBE cards for us is how they treat foreign DACs. The HP would PXE >> boot with several brands and generic DACs, but the Chelsio required a >> Chelsio brand DAC to PXE boot. There was firmware on the NIC to check the >> brand of cable. Both worked fine once booted. The Chelsio cables were hard >> to find, which became a problem. Also, when used with diskless Unix >> clients the Chelsio cards seemed to hang from time to time. Otherwise >> packet loss was one in a million for both cards, even with 7 meter cables. >> >> We liked the fact that the Chelsio cards were single-port and cheaper. I >> don't really understand why nearly all 10GBE cards are dual-port. Surely >> there is a market for NICs between 1 gigabit and 20 gigabit. >> >> The NIC heatsinks are too hot to touch during use unless specially cooled. >> >> Daniel Feenberg >> NBER >> >> >> --------------------- >> The same reason that they don't make single core cpus anymore. It costs >> about the >> same to make a 1 port chip as a 2 port chip. >> >> I find it interesting how so many talk about "the cards", when most >> often the >> differences are with "the drivers". Luigi made the most useful comment; >> if you ever >> want to use netmap, you need to buy a card compatible with netmap. >> Although >> you don't need netmap just to capture 10Gb/s. Forwarding, Maybe. >> >> I also find it interesting that nobody seems to have a handle on the >> performance >> differences. Obviously they're all different. Maybe substantially >> different. > > It depends on what kind of performance you are talking about. > All NICs are capable of doing linerate RX/TX for both small/big packets. this is actually not true. I have direct experience with Intel, Mellanox and Broadcom, and small packets are a problem across the board even with 1 port. From my experience only intel can do line rate (14.88Mpps) with 64-byte frames, but suffers a bit with sizes that are not multiple of 64. Mellanox peaks at around 7Mpps. Broadcom is limited to some 2.5Mpps. This is all with netmap, using the regular stack you are going to see much much less. Large frames (1400+) are probably not a problem for anyone, but since the original post asked for packet capture, i thought the small-frame case is a relevant one. > The only notable exception I;m aware of are Intel 82598-based NICs which > advertise PCI-E X8 gen2 with _2.5GT_ link speed, giving you maximum > ~14Gbit/s bw for 2 ports instead of 20. This makes me curious because i believe people have used netmap with the 82598 and achieved close to line rate even with 64-byte frames/one port, and i thought (maybe I am wrong ?) the various 2-port NICs use 4 lanes per port. So the number i remember does not match with your quote of 2.5Gt/s. Are all 82598 using 2.5GT/s (which is a gen.1 speed) instead of 5 ? cheers luigi _______________________________________________ "64 byte frames" rarely require that 64 bytes be transferred across the bus. Depending on your offloads the bus requirement can be quite a bit less than the line speed. BC From owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 28 18:32:21 2013 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-net@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077CD62E for <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:32:21 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from barney_cordoba@yahoo.com) Received: from nm9.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm9.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.90.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB30824F9 for <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:32:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [98.138.101.130] by nm9.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jul 2013 18:30:12 -0000 Received: from [98.138.88.237] by tm18.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jul 2013 18:30:11 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1037.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jul 2013 18:30:11 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 893653.34373.bm@omp1037.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 14677 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Jul 2013 18:30:11 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t75036211; bh=QWtbTZOWxpya9bMMUj7OraEQjzhzUPhaQ6K3EICe/tE=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=RwhzsQwsqOZArm4GLVm1WBOeTz/cAY8/ds11W+q8Xo6+vl0uO1PiJs29imahxQeMELVjerVJpF/txTc2f9tEmk+yU5GDum2RNoLVhbzZAB2NdXiOZ5axJjHfTx8loxpU+9VNQ2VO+JHnFH0J38NBTdUNtoc0ULSSzCWoCO6qkh4DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TMGIRJ2t/AEl6s0ujzoq5MuLkAhZvhv4VydkO2s5cVJ/9UHUttNICwXQRg1mPcZgRBANFrwJ1zZEfzhpl/0KgB9AIqDpgyAGP7/m750fWNn7D7eYX3yfDPvfP5JFMOVyHCEBmSnHmGfxi+dIJ9ALTtWKbHfj394zp2o1ap0jOBk=; X-YMail-OSG: QtULbmwVM1n9r6FHFW7HAa41xXhKkWzggaaObTJIJoXgYeZ DMIXm_c99Zx.1dIt7vXIKAnGs5vLfuVqbMCFligB5O1R0H8QSUS06xo.wyk6 _OmJSiUUcmPjcrhDroFPQdOeGafd0HTqhOYJuWpmedpn9hGfhRVe4ToFSYcD 2Y8DeGPC50I7rubo1uNEseuLhfqQcApnVFYI2lbG0KtA8XQpGe4tdGmfxc0R 25oT9JiC049iayIdsfzTQ_Ea.goy3NR_X_fDxBnATbBok48i8v2GuTv5DrfR IilD6ZdnTa9pL6RmmutuxnWk68IkiONdCjlFc.Xcux_fPW35s1A_pvLyeOoC eE4TcKsxhO32EJQYsy1VnJhVEjXKA50uTBdpO_HZaOEFWO0nUP7yuW2YSZ3W QynFbYXqcHNsHEVObtZrnf.E3muZxu1C3o9vCjeJvOlGmdG1tyyH0vnj4Evg OsSFRvxjNA6fVbOC04Obw2YVC3psfXSinffiDQimKtYj6QENbCWjtvivRWpc zu1A5PJItOQK2tM9C2m6T3Fr8wc5NbZbg.cwhp4H1Bqury32vhN0P0FvMaW7 M5gW1TYMvyuQCQy.CKtyE Received: from [98.203.118.124] by web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:30:10 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001, CgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCiBGcm9tOiBBbGV4YW5kZXIgVi4gQ2hlcm5pa292IDxtZWxpZmFyb0BGcmVlQlNELm9yZz4KVG86IEJhcm5leSBDb3Jkb2JhIDxiYXJuZXlfY29yZG9iYUB5YWhvby5jb20.IApDYzogImZyZWVic2QtbmV0QGZyZWVic2Qub3JnIiA8ZnJlZWJzZC1uZXRAZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc.OyBEYW5pZWwgRmVlbmJlcmcgPGZlZW5iZXJnQG5iZXIub3JnPiAKU2VudDogU2F0dXJkYXksIEp1bHkgMjcsIDIwMTMgNDowMiBBTQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUmVjb21tZW4BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.150.561 References: <51F0386D.2000709@acm.poly.edu> <51F16A07.9030505@FreeBSD.org> <1374852658.90079.YahooMailNeo@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51F2A313.9070105@FreeBSD.org> <alpine.LRH.2.03.1307261646050.25254@nber.org> <1374876857.42890.YahooMailNeo@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51F37E97.3090203@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <1375036210.13843.YahooMailNeo@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:30:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Barney Cordoba <barney_cordoba@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC To: "Alexander V. Chernikov" <melifaro@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <51F37E97.3090203@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>, Daniel Feenberg <feenberg@nber.org> X-BeenThere: freebsd-net@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Barney Cordoba <barney_cordoba@yahoo.com> List-Id: Networking and TCP/IP with FreeBSD <freebsd-net.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/options/freebsd-net>, <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-net>; List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-net@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-net>, <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:32:21 -0000 ________________________________ From: Alexander V. Chernikov <melifaro@FreeBSD.org> To: Barney Cordoba <barney_cordoba@yahoo.com> Cc: "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>; Daniel Feenberg <feenberg@nber.org> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:02 AM Subject: Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC On 27.07.2013 02:14, Barney Cordoba wrote: > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Daniel Feenberg <feenberg@nber.org> > *To:* Alexander V. Chernikov <melifaro@FreeBSD.org> > *Cc:* Barney Cordoba <barney_cordoba@yahoo.com>; > "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" <freebsd-net@freebsd.org> > *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 4:59 PM > *Subject:* Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC > > > On Fri, 26 Jul 2013, Alexander V. Chernikov wrote: > > > On 26.07.2013 19:30, Barney Cordoba wrote: > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *From:* Alexander V. Chernikov <melifaro@FreeBSD.org > <mailto:melifaro@FreeBSD.org>> > >> *To:* Boris Kochergin <spawk@acm.poly.edu <mailto:spawk@acm.poly.edu>> > >> *Cc:* freebsd-net@freebsd.org <mailto:freebsd-net@freebsd.org> > >> *Sent:* Thursday, July 25, 2013 2:10 PM > >> *Subject:* Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC > >> > >> On 25.07.2013 00:26, Boris Kochergin wrote: > >> > Hi. > >> Hello. > >> > > >> > I am looking for recommendations for a 10gbps NIC from someone who has > >> > successfully used it on FreeBSD. It will be used on FreeBSD > 9.1-R/amd64 > >> > to capture packets. Some desired features are: > >> > > > We have experience with HP NC523SFP and Chelsio N320E. The key difference > among 10GBE cards for us is how they treat foreign DACs. The HP would PXE > boot with several brands and generic DACs, but the Chelsio required a > Chelsio brand DAC to PXE boot. There was firmware on the NIC to check the > brand of cable. Both worked fine once booted. The Chelsio cables were hard > to find, which became a problem. Also, when used with diskless Unix > clients the Chelsio cards seemed to hang from time to time. Otherwise > packet loss was one in a million for both cards, even with 7 meter cables. > > We liked the fact that the Chelsio cards were single-port and cheaper. I > don't really understand why nearly all 10GBE cards are dual-port. Surely > there is a market for NICs between 1 gigabit and 20 gigabit. > > The NIC heatsinks are too hot to touch during use unless specially cooled. > > Daniel Feenberg > NBER > > > --------------------- > The same reason that they don't make single core cpus anymore. It costs > about the > same to make a 1 port chip as a 2 port chip. > > I find it interesting how so many talk about "the cards", when most > often the > differences are with "the drivers". Luigi made the most useful comment; > if you ever > want to use netmap, you need to buy a card compatible with netmap. Although > you don't need netmap just to capture 10Gb/s. Forwarding, Maybe. > > I also find it interesting that nobody seems to have a handle on the > performance > differences. Obviously they're all different. Maybe substantially different. "It depends on what kind of performance you are talking about. All NICs are capable of doing linerate RX/TX for both small/big packets. The only notable exception I;m aware of are Intel 82598-based NICs which advertise PCI-E X8 gen2 with _2.5GT_ link speed, giving you maximum ~14Gbit/s bw for 2 ports instead of 20." This statement is sort of like saying "all cars can do 65MPH" or whatever the speed limit is, so therefore all cars are equal. If one device can forward 2Mpps at 20% cpu and other used 45%, obvious there is a preference to use the more efficient driver/controller. BC > > The x540 with RJ45 has the obvious advantage of being compatible with > regular gigabit cards, > and single port adapters are about $325 in the US. > > When cheap(er) 10g RJ45 switches become available, it will start to be > used more and more. > Very soon. > > BC > _______________________________________________ freebsd-net@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-net To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-net-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Jul 28 18:42:14 2013 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-net@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02393C28; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:42:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jfvogel@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vc0-x232.google.com (mail-vc0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c03::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D7722558; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:42:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-vc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id ha12so1603582vcb.9 for <multiple recipients>; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:42:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s 120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=QU9PTVL2txKWMo0WFSg5nYAa56CXH7ZsKS1O7EzfL18=; b=CKh2nm8OZ/bUQ7kfLPY/wg6pnTygt78H9aob5AbNoPcZDxbqZ7JlKuBFOThuBDr8eA 1icAl8HqPe57VURh058Py7F7X66isgugCyJAZV3IaG6DPiMR1g9PEEpmtv5WK8dhHzg7 LYVJz7JlJ0ulQ/BgBJitCklEiboQw9X8/qMobyMN7wYURIBoIfLwp8t99u+7vm6R70uv D9VBhaA/CseKUEWVbvhwdNPTA86lRa8inY6B0e18dUTBJA02v0FFOad1fpotSNV9F7M3 PFMZt3oIZwVt0n/V4VmdJjK4ZAYD3k85PSNyjEi4iaNyYUPxCYOmyWmBHBIlB3aV8LvR Z2OQ=MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.118.8 with SMTP id ki8mr24134536veb.84.1375036932684; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.52.200 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:42:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51F3F3BA.20604@freebsd.org> References: <51F0386D.2000709@acm.poly.edu> <51F16A07.9030505@FreeBSD.org> <1374852658.90079.YahooMailNeo@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51F2A313.9070105@FreeBSD.org> <alpine.LRH.2.03.1307261646050.25254@nber.org> <1374876857.42890.YahooMailNeo@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51F37E97.3090203@FreeBSD.org> <CA+hQ2+gQxdNM1o_rScuyPb_T9sm+=gEF1dUa5aknfUYrO4K9HA@mail.gmail.com> <51F387E8.6090704@FreeBSD.org> <51F3F3BA.20604@freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 11:42:12 -0700 Message-ID: <CAFOYbcm+Zdn+YKGNCaW53P_4FDNWVuK+HYYZWYVkq4+3yJubaQ@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Recommendations for 10gbps NIC From: Jack Vogel <jfvogel@gmail.com> To: Andre Oppermann <andre@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" <freebsd-net@freebsd.org>, "Alexander V. Chernikov" <melifaro@freebsd.org>, Luigi Rizzo <rizzo@iet.unipi.it> X-BeenThere: freebsd-net@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Networking and TCP/IP with FreeBSD <freebsd-net.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/options/freebsd-net>, <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-net>; List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-net@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-net>, <mailto:freebsd-net-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2013 18:42:14 -0000 On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Andre Oppermann <andre@freebsd.org> wrote: > On 27.07.2013 10:42, Alexander V. Chernikov wrote: > >> On 27.07.2013 12:15, Luigi Rizzo wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Alexander V. Chernikov >>> <melifaro@freebsd.org> wrote: >>> This makes me curious because i believe people have used netmap with >>> the 82598 and achieved close to line rate even with 64-byte frames/one >>> port, >>> and i thought (maybe I am wrong ?) the various 2-port NICs use 4 lanes >>> per port. >>> So the number i remember does not match with your quote of 2.5Gt/s. >>> Are all 82598 using 2.5GT/s (which is a gen.1 speed) instead of 5 ? >>> >> > > >> Quoting 82598EB datasheet: >> The PCIe v2.0 (2.5 GT/s) interface is used by the 82598EB as a host >> interface. It supports x8, x4, >> x2 and x1 configurations at a speed of 2.5 GHz. The maximum aggregated >> raw ban.. >> >> Actually I discovered this exactly with netmap and 82598*-DA2 NIC :) >> > > Discussing the 82598 is moot because it has been replaced with the 82599 > which supports x1-x8 at 5 GT/s. AFAIK you can't event buy the 82598 > anymore. > > Yes, and the new quad port adapters on PCIE Gen 3 give you 8GT/s bandwidth for the device. I'm not sure if you could buy the 82598 but I surely would not recommend it to anyone :) Jack
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