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Date:      Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:51:09 -0700
From:      Nate Williams <nate@sri.MT.net>
To:        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc:        nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de, jdp@polstra.com, nate@sneezy.sri.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: GAS question
Message-ID:  <199603192051.NAA04951@rocky.sri.MT.net>
In-Reply-To: <199603192030.NAA24685@phaeton.artisoft.com>
References:  <199603192021.NAA04845@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199603192030.NAA24685@phaeton.artisoft.com>

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> > > not so much the Emacs command set, per se, as the fact that it's a
> > > huge memory pig.
> > 
> > And VC++ isn't?  I can run Emacs IDE in a smaller memory footprint than
> > VC++ if I leave out X.
> 
> VC++ has a 2-4M footprint... or, actually, "Microsoft Developer Studio"
> has that footprint.  My machine that it's installed on has 16M, but 12
> of that is for Windows 95 and the broken VCACHE code for cache utilization
> backoff (that isn't fixed, even in their most recent update, publically
> available soon).

Fair enough.  XEmacs has a 2-4MB footprint.  But, X has an 8MB
footprint, and FreeBSD a 4MB footprint, so we have about the same memory
footprint.

> If I run an FFS FS under Win95 (which I do) and crank the VCACHE
> parameters down, I can run in 8M.  But like GCC, 8M slows the
> compiles down compared with 16M.

I can run XEmacs in 8MB too, but it *really* slows the compiles down due
to thrashing. :)

> > > I guess I could live with unguessable command syntax (how do you
> > > exit microEmacs, anyway?) if I had printed documentation.  Which
> > > I have for VC++.
> > 
> > For $150 + shipping, I could print out all of the XEmacs docs for
> > you. :)
> 
> No thanks; i'm only interested in the IDE part.  I'd like to substitute
> the editor for "vi" (like I do using the Microsoft tools).

'vi' is incapable of doing all of the necessary work.  Can you replace
the editor in VC++ with vi?  Can you replace it with *any* editor?  (My
biggest beef with most PC tools is that you can't replace the editor
with your editor of choice.)

> > > Hell, I'd even be willing to pay the same several hundred dollars
> > > I paid for VC++ just to get a comparable environment with printed
> > > documentation.
> > 
> > $VC++ 4.0 is $495 w/out documentation.  Docs are another $150 +
> > shipping, and are now superceded by the pending VC++ 4.1 release.
> 
> This is retail price.  This is not what you pay for an MSDN Level 2
> SDK/DDK/VC++ subscription.

I think I paid $695/yr for my L2 kit, plus another $495/yr for the
subscription.

> > Because the development team and OS team are completely separate, and
> > have completely different release schedules.  It makes no sense to have
> > force the OS development group to rush/delay their release to sync up
> > with the compiler group.
> 
> No, but vive-versa makes sense: after all, I really want the compiler
> that compiled the OS, not some bastard version that might in fact be
> unable to compile the OS properly (not like anyone tests these things
> anyway, if the process is decoupled).

VC++ isn't the compiler the OS team uses.  They use a command line
compiler that is distributed with the L2 kit, not VC.  (This according
to someone who works at M$ in their OS group.)

> > You're arguements against using Emacs apply as well to VC++, so are
> > moot.
> 
> Not so.  I can click Icon's and menus without having to remember it.

You can do that in XEmacs too.  Don't confuse the old Emacs with the
newer XEmacs release.  It's the reason I switched from vi.


Nate



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