Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:34:59 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au> To: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: make world error in RELENG_2_2 Message-ID: <199706200005.JAA00514@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970619185234.00a47e10@sentex.net> from Mike Tancsa at "Jun 19, 97 06:52:34 pm"
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Mike Tancsa stands accused of saying: > > > >There's no "all of a sudden" about it. These sort of complaints are a > >continual feature of the landscape. I'm just at that point in the > >month wher they set my teeth on edge. > > Ahhh... so, what is the point of the mailling list then ? Are people only > supposed to post success stories? Nooo, but posting "I have a problem" straight up, and expecting someone else to do your detective work with no supporting information is a bit much, you have to admit. > I guess the end of May wasnt that time of month for you... There were > several posts about it in questions. I dont think people are trying to lay > blame, or even criticize the efforts of the FreeBSD developers... But you > would call it incompetence, if someone with who started with 2.2.1, > tracking 2.2-RELENG, who happily does a dozen or so make worlds, then all > of a sudden gets a build failure is automatically user error ? I'll say it again; there are a lot of competent people building the -stable releases on a daily basis. If something is _really_ busted in -stable, there will be loud complaints from lots of people about it. As a less-experienced worlder, best practice is to lurk watching for these outbursts. When you haven't bheard one for a few days, you can be sure the tree is stable and buildable. > If its not > documented anywhere that you have to blow away /usr/include, how are you > supposed to automatically know that? You don't have to blow away /usr/include. I've _never_ had to do this. Blowing away /usr/include is a drastic solution for someone that's managed somehow to toast their include tree and isn't capable of rebuilding it by hand. > And, if these lazy ass people who > have these problems should not post to the mailling list, because it pisses > people off, what are they to do ? You are only discouraging people from > using FreeBSD by this elitist attitude. *sigh* Look; my point is that as a newcomer to any forum or field, it is wise to remain quiet and observe the customs and forms of the environment before leaping in with all feet blazing. Popping up and saying "I am having a problem..." is fine. _Ignoring_ the feedback from experienced users that tells you that the problem is of your own making, and impossible to guess from the information provided, and merely insisting that you have a problem is going to get you ignored - there is nothing that can be done to help you, you refuse to help yourself, so what boots it to try? > Ahhh no... More like "The government should post a sign saying 'Danger, > bridge out on Route B'"... But I guess if you are driving at night and you > dont see that the bridge is out and there is no sign to warn you, its your > own damn fault. Ah, but there _are_ warning signs like that posted. They go to the commit mailing lists, which is what you shoiuld be watching to see if rebuilding the world is even worth the effort. You can summarise these by looking at the additions to the commitlogs if you are cvsupping the entire repository too. Oh, and to answer your question; as someone who covers a lot of ground fast at night, yes, missing a roud outage _is_ your own stupid fault. > >I particularly resent changes and impositions (such as attempting to > >maintain an impossible README) that are meant to make things OK for > >people that are too lazy or careless to learn for themselves. > > So why have any documentation at all ? Documentation is designed to take someone from a fairly well defined initial state to some equally well-defined final state. The documentation you are proposing would have to deal with the almost infinite number of possibly confused initial states, and ultimately there would still be people out of its scope. As I also pointed out, it would never be maintained (experience speaking), so not only would it be incomplete, it'd be wrong too. > >Firstly, they don't work. Secondly, they make life less enjoyable for > >the rest of us. > > So dont read the README?!?! Let us who are in the darkness of mediocraty > and incompetence waste our time as we are spoon fed by documentation.... > Sheesh! You don't understand. You see, someone has to create and maintain this documentation; _that_ is the "less enjoyable" part. > ---Mike (who perhaps had too much coffee) *chuckle* -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[
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