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Date:      Mon, 08 Jan 2018 23:37:13 -0800
From:      "Chris H" <bsd-lists@BSDforge.com>
To:        "Mark Heily" <mark@heily.com>
Cc:        <mykel@mware.ca>, "freebsd-current" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>, "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net>
Subject:   Re: Make periodic's output log to files if sendmail is disabled on install
Message-ID:  <c66154f7e778070a8b85e0bb7105dfdd@udns.ultimatedns.net>
In-Reply-To: <CAGfo=8=qq8AXS7rdO1utsRxiQzEkHc%2B%2B_CqtKSVxRfoBd76h-Q@mail.gmail.com>

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On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 22:26:14 -0500 "Mark Heily" <mark@heily=2Ecom> said

> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 10:26 AM, Rodney W=2E Grimes <
> freebsd-rwg@pdx=2Erh=2Ecn85=2Ednsmgr=2Enet> wrote:
>=20
> > > 1) if sendmail is disabled during installation, have periodic's outpu=
t
> > > logged to files (per example in
> > > https://www=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/cgi/man=2Ecgi?periodic(8) )
> >
> > I would not make this option dependent on sendmail, it should just
> > be a stand alone set of options
> >         "Do you want logs"
> >                 #Completely turn off periodic in crontab
> >         "Do you want logs mailed or stored in files"
> >                 #dtrt
> >
> > > 2) make this the default anyway (logging to files), arguably the vast
> > > majority of systems' reporting is ignored :)
> > > At least now it could be logrotated out!
> >
> > You can argue that when you provide a statistical data set,
> > until then this is speculation at best and should not be used
> > in an argument for or against a change like this=2E
> >
> >
> If I do nothing different in the installer please make sure
> > the systems end up as they have been configured for a very
> > long time to minimize POLA=2E  And to minimize any changes to
> > all the post install configuration that people have been
> > doing up until now=2E
> >
> >
> Do you have "statistical data" to back up your claim that the
> the current installer settings cause the least amount
> of astonishment to users? Why should your speculation about
> POLA be given special treatment, while other people's speculation
> requires hard evidence?
>=20
>=20
> > Changing how things work out of the box undoes or adds to
> > changes people already have in place, and for larger instances,
> > probably have fully automated=2E
> >
> >
> I'm in favor of the suggestion of leaving the periodic cronjobs turned
> off by default in the next release=2E Any existing automation is likely
> geared towards turning those jobs off, and it would be trivial to turn
> them back on again=2E As long as user-visible changes are documented
> in the release notes, and users have an easy way to override the default,=
 I
> am all for providing a cleaner and simpler out of box experience=2E
Nothing personal, Mark=2E But my personal opinion/choice on this change; is
to leave it as-is=2E My justification is that after *years* of users expectin=
g,
things to be as they are, and adjusting as-needed=2E Changing this will
more likely cause more interference, than joy=2E Given that in the 30 some
yrs I've been riding some form of BSD, and this is the first I've heard a
request/complaint about this specifically=2E I'd wager those stats to be
fairly reasonable=2E

--Chris





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