Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 18:58:18 +0200 From: Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> To: Ian Smith <smithi@nimnet.asn.au> Cc: Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de>, Michael Grimm <trashcan@ellael.org>, questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <CA%2B1FSiiz=nCF6QFAeRNY4udF7sq-_JosXeY=0Bk0Q=6j6VgXcg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <989A99FE-5DA3-4346-B886-32F8E64BA6F0@nimnet.asn.au> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <CA%2B1FSihVPCQ6tp8u=aqnLyyOPpCMrnhYGcC8bCUgRbFHTdY5sA@mail.gmail.com> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9132FC42688@ellael.org> <20230417133223.3ef5e26c.freebsd@edvax.de> <CA%2B1FSihn%2BB6LTUm7gof6Nd=niL5=dMvQ46HUv=NJ2%2BNhcLS7RQ@mail.gmail.com> <989A99FE-5DA3-4346-B886-32F8E64BA6F0@nimnet.asn.au>
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--00000000000031099d05f98b1b7c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---> Many FreeBSD users are clearly not looking to increase the number of non-skilled users for the sake of a larger number to wave around. I suspect most would prefer to raise the average IQ, but it's not a competition; we're not selling anything, right? Non-skilled users may become skilled if you make something they like to join the game. Between the non skilled users there could be potenzial skilled users and skilled users. If you want to attract users you have only to earn. If you don't want to, you will have a system that will be used by a small number of users with a low level of innovation ; a system that is always going to die. You don't have to deal with the non skilled users if you don't want to waste your time. Someone else maybe will help them or will find some kind of collaboration with them. Just think about the fact that FreeBSD needs more skilled developers to become better. Now there are not so many and in different areas of the OS the development is slow,if not stalled. You don't seem to love the OS if you want this kind of path for it. > FreeBSD has lagged in the adoption of several technologies that came into linux and this makes it intuitive to understand how to use it. And Linux has benefited enormously from BSD technologies from the start. Sadly the viral GNU licence, especially v3, limits what the BSDs can use from Linux. Interesting. So,these are the reasons why you don't want linuxism to join FreeBSD,eh. You are angry and you don't care to look into the Linux world to see what this OS can offer to FreeBSD to improve it. That's bad. You should care only to get FreeBSD developed well. And since the Linux world is full of innovation,it's not a bad idea to have a better relationship with that world. What other people have done or not you should give a damn. On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 6:36=E2=80=AFPM Ian Smith <smithi@nimnet.asn.au> wr= ote: > On 17 April 2023 10:07:17 pm AEST, Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com= > > wrote: > > > Ohhh finally someone has been able to catch the reasons why docker > > has been > > and it is a great tool. > > If you mean Polytropon, my take is that you've missed that he's skillfull= y > using a tool called "damning with faint praise". > > > I may agree that these reasons aren't heavily > > based on the code's sophistication. > > Parsing failure; pass. > > > But hey,who says that this is enough to > > decide if a tool is useful and capable of reaching the critical mass > > of people ? > > Ah, "critical mass" theory. Meaningless unless seeking a nuclear > explosion. > > > Docker can be used by non-skilled people,like me and many > > others. > > Many FreeBSD users are clearly not looking to increase the number of > non-skilled users for the sake of a larger number to wave around. I > suspect most would prefer to raise the average IQ, but it's not a > competition; we're not selling anything, right? > > If you wish to see anything implemented in FreeBSD you have the choice of > doing it yourself, or paying somebody else to create, debug and maintain = it. > > Continually arguing that someone ELSE should implement YOUR vision is > clearly going nowhere. Nor will claiming there is some mob of silent use= rs > whose views you are championing cut any ice. > > > Jails are good,technically well coded,but less known,they exude an > > excessive technicality, unlike FreeBSD, which is more immediate to > > use (and > > this seems to be a contradiction). > > WTF does 'exude excessive technicality' mean? That you haven't read the > docs? > > > For sure I don't want to import in the > > FreeBSD ecosystem tools like there are in windows, where developers > > prefer > > to sacrifice too much technicality in exchange to an exaggerated ease > > of > > use. I don't want that tool to think for me. I use my PC to train my > > mind > > to solve problems every day,but if those problems are too > > complicated,I > > can't solve anything and I can't help no one to test how the > > development of > > a tool is going. > > Indigestible word salad. Burp. > > > I know that many will disagree,but each operating > > system > > has strengths and weaknesses because whoever creates it comes from a > > certain cultural background and has fed them since its origins. > > You're talking about thousands of people over 40 years or so in BSD's > case. Try studying the history more deeply. > > > FreeBSD has lagged in the > > adoption of several technologies that came into linux and this makes > > it > > intuitive to understand how to use it. > > And Linux has benefited enormously from BSD technologies from the start. > Sadly the viral GNU licence, especially v3, limits what the BSDs can use > from Linux. > > > If you don't want to adapt docker to > > FreeBSD, at least the use of jails should be made more usable and > > immediate > > for users who don't have much experience. > > Once YOU become experienced in their use, YOU can help make them 'more > usable' for those with perhaps limited capacity to understand - but pleas= e > stop suggesting OTHERS work on YOUR stuff. > > > > On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 1:33=E2=80=AFPM Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> = wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:28:55 +0200, Michael Grimm wrote: > > > > Jails are simple to set up and to use, and jails can be > > distributed > > > > by any capable admin, granted. > > > > > > And _that_ is the point: Docker can be used by non-skilled people. > > > One side of this is the use of automation tools that do things > > > for you, included thinking. The other side is a shiny web > > interface. > > > The third side is a profit-oriented company that you can make a > > > contract with and pay money to, in exchange for service, support, > > > and maybe the illusion of stability. ;-) > > Amen. > --=20 Mario. --00000000000031099d05f98b1b7c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span class=3D"gmail-im">---> </span>Many FreeBSD = users are clearly not looking to increase the number of=20 non-skilled users for the sake of a larger number to wave around.=C2=A0 I= =20 suspect most would prefer to raise the average IQ, but it's not a=20 competition; we're not selling anything, right?</div><div><br></div><di= v>Non-skilled users may become skilled if you make something they like to j= oin the game. Between the non skilled users there could be potenzial skille= d users and skilled users. If you want to attract users you have only to ea= rn. If you don't want to, you will have a system that will be used by a= small number of users with a low level of innovation ; a system that is al= ways going to die. You don't have to deal with the non skilled users if= you don't want to waste your time. Someone else maybe will help them o= r will find some kind of collaboration with them. Just think about the fact= that FreeBSD needs more skilled developers to become better. Now there are= not so many and in different areas of the OS the development is slow,if no= t stalled. You don't seem to love the OS if you want this kind of path = for it. <br></div><div><span class=3D"gmail-im"> <br> =C2=A0> FreeBSD has lagged in the adoption of several technologies that = came into linux and this makes it intuitive to understand how to use it. </= span>And Linux has benefited enormously from BSD technologies from the=20 start.=C2=A0 Sadly the viral GNU licence, especially v3, limits what the BS= Ds can use from Linux.<span class=3D"gmail-im"><br></span></div><div><span cl= ass=3D"gmail-im"><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"gmail-im">Interesting= . So,these are the reasons why you don't want linuxism to join FreeBSD,= eh. You are angry and you don't care to look into the Linux world to se= e what this OS can offer to FreeBSD to improve it. That's bad. You shou= ld care only to </span><span class=3D"gmail-Y2IQFc" lang=3D"en">get FreeBSD= developed well. And since the Linux world is full of innovation,it's n= ot a bad idea to have a better relationship with that world. What other peo= ple have done or not you should give a damn. <br></span></div></div><br><di= v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 1= 7, 2023 at 6:36=E2=80=AFPM Ian Smith <<a href=3D"mailto:smithi@nimnet.as= n.au">smithi@nimnet.asn.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma= il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2= 04,204);padding-left:1ex">On 17 April 2023 10:07:17 pm AEST, Mario Marietto= <<a href=3D"mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">marietto20= 08@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> <br> =C2=A0> Ohhh finally someone has been able to catch the reasons why dock= er<br> =C2=A0> has been<br> =C2=A0> and it is a great tool.<br> <br> If you mean Polytropon, my take is that you've missed that he's ski= llfully using a tool called "damning with faint praise".<br> <br> =C2=A0> I may agree that these reasons aren't heavily<br> =C2=A0> based on the code's sophistication.<br> <br> Parsing failure; pass.<br> <br> =C2=A0> But hey,who says that this is enough to<br> =C2=A0> decide if a tool is useful and capable of reaching the critical = mass<br> =C2=A0> of people ?<br> <br> Ah, "critical mass" theory.=C2=A0 Meaningless unless seeking a nu= clear explosion.<br> <br> =C2=A0> Docker can be used by non-skilled people,like me and many<br> =C2=A0> others.<br> <br> Many FreeBSD users are clearly not looking to increase the number of non-sk= illed users for the sake of a larger number to wave around.=C2=A0 I suspect= most would prefer to raise the average IQ, but it's not a competition;= we're not selling anything, right?<br> <br> If you wish to see anything implemented in FreeBSD you have the choice of d= oing it yourself, or paying somebody else to create, debug and maintain it.= <br> <br> Continually arguing that someone ELSE should implement YOUR vision is clear= ly going nowhere.=C2=A0 Nor will claiming there is some mob of silent users= whose views you are championing cut any ice.<br> <br> =C2=A0> Jails are good,technically well coded,but less known,they exude = an<br> =C2=A0> excessive technicality, unlike FreeBSD, which is more immediate = to<br> =C2=A0> use (and<br> =C2=A0> this seems to be a contradiction).<br> <br> WTF does 'exude excessive technicality' mean?=C2=A0 That you haven&= #39;t read the docs?<br> <br> =C2=A0> For sure I don't want to import in the<br> =C2=A0> FreeBSD ecosystem tools like there are in windows, where develop= ers<br> =C2=A0> prefer<br> =C2=A0> to sacrifice too much technicality in exchange to an exaggerated= ease<br> =C2=A0> of<br> =C2=A0> use. I don't want that tool to think for me. I use my PC to = train my<br> =C2=A0> mind<br> =C2=A0> to solve problems every day,but if those problems are too<br> =C2=A0> complicated,I<br> =C2=A0> can't solve anything and I can't help no one to test how= the<br> =C2=A0> development of<br> =C2=A0> a tool is going.<br> <br> Indigestible word salad.=C2=A0 Burp.<br> <br> =C2=A0> I know that many will disagree,but each operating<br> =C2=A0> system<br> =C2=A0> has strengths and weaknesses because whoever creates it comes fr= om a<br> =C2=A0> certain cultural background and has fed them since its origins.<= br> <br> You're talking about thousands of people over 40 years or so in BSD'= ;s case.=C2=A0 Try studying the history more deeply.<br> <br> =C2=A0> FreeBSD has lagged in the<br> =C2=A0> adoption of several technologies that came into linux and this m= akes<br> =C2=A0> it<br> =C2=A0> intuitive to understand how to use it.<br> <br> And Linux has benefited enormously from BSD technologies from the start.=C2= =A0 Sadly the viral GNU licence, especially v3, limits what the BSDs can us= e from Linux.<br> <br> =C2=A0> If you don't want to adapt docker to<br> =C2=A0> FreeBSD, at least the use of jails should be made more usable an= d<br> =C2=A0> immediate<br> =C2=A0> for users who don't have much experience.<br> <br> Once YOU become experienced in their use, YOU can help make them 'more = usable' for those with perhaps limited capacity to understand - but ple= ase stop suggesting OTHERS work on YOUR stuff.<br> <br> <br> =C2=A0> On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 1:33=E2=80=AFPM Polytropon <<a href= =3D"mailto:freebsd@edvax.de" target=3D"_blank">freebsd@edvax.de</a>> wro= te:<br> =C2=A0> <br> =C2=A0> > On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 20:28:55 +0200, Michael Grimm wrote:<br= > =C2=A0> > > Jails are simple to set up and to use, and jails can b= e<br> =C2=A0> distributed<br> =C2=A0> > > by any capable admin, granted.<br> =C2=A0> ><br> =C2=A0> > And _that_ is the point: Docker can be used by non-skilled = people.<br> =C2=A0> > One side of this is the use of automation tools that do thi= ngs<br> =C2=A0> > for you, included thinking. The other side is a shiny web<b= r> =C2=A0> interface.<br> =C2=A0> > The third side is a profit-oriented company that you can ma= ke a<br> =C2=A0> > contract with and pay money to, in exchange for service, su= pport,<br> =C2=A0> > and maybe the illusion of stability. ;-)<br> <br> Amen.<br> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br><span class=3D"gmail_signature_pre= fix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">Mario.<br></d= iv> --00000000000031099d05f98b1b7c--
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