Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 16:53:22 -0500 From: Mike Meyer <mwm-dated-1022882002.1c7874@mired.org> To: Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@online.fr> Cc: rob <rob@pythonemproject.com>, "chat@freebsd.org" <chat@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Bottom-quoting (was Re: My friends were amazed at FreeBSD...) Message-ID: <15601.22866.542982.337526@guru.mired.org> In-Reply-To: <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020524143036.C67484@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020524164101.P51722-100000@muheleja.eenet.ee> <20020524163603.L81843@lpt.ens.fr> <3CEECD6A.5E9BB6A6@pythonemproject.com> <20020525175149.A69827@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.2665.379231.456776@guru.mired.org> <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr> <15601.10022.167754.574044@guru.mired.org> <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr>
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In <20020526183504.GA472@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@online.fr> typed: > > > My remark, about the mail client not letting you delete lines, was > > > not meant to be serious -- I certainly hope such a thing doesn't > > > exist. Selective and appropriate quoting is the best of all, but > > > bottom quoting is not so bad; I've seen JKH and Linus Torvalds do > > > it, among other celebrities, and it's pretty standard in the "real > > > world". > > If by "real world", you mean "clueless computer users", I'd agree > > with that. > Since you hang around the -current and -hackers lists, I imagine > you've seen several such "clueless computer users" there. Some of > whom are significant contributors to the project. Yes, I've seen a few clueless people on -hackers and -current. I've also seen people who know what they're doing, and recognize those rare occasions when top posting is acceptable. Encouraging someone who hasn't yet figured out how to edit quoted text to top post because you're bothered by having to skim the quoted block is sort of like teaching your two-year old to defecate on the sidewalk to avoid having to change diapers. Sure, it solves your problem. But it leaves turds all over the place for the rest of us to deal with. Much better to teach them to edit quotes, probably starting with not bothering to include a quote at all. > Now I'm scared for the future of FreeBSD. Anyone who's watched FreeBSD for a while realize that social skills - not defecating on public property, not top posting, and similar behaviors that benefit the public good - are unrelated to coding skills. Committers need the latter, not the former. So don't worry. > You haven't said why it's wrong to bottom-quote (apart from the > bandwidth issue). You claim that it's as "annoying" as top-quoting an > entire post, which is strange, since if it's bottom-quoted you're not > forced to look at it. I haven't felt like saying why top-posting - by whatever name it's called - is a bad idea because those reasons are easily found on the web. So you can avoid having to do a little research, the main reason is that it destroys the chronological order of a discussion. > If we're talking annoyance factors, one can pick out several in > anyone's style. Here are some in yours. > > Mike Meyer said on May 26, 2002 at 13:19:18: > > In <20020526173949.GA230@lpt.ens.fr>, Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@online.fr> typed: > Is it really necessary to quote the message ID, sender's name *and* > sender's address in the attribution line, thus causing it to overflow > the margin? Yes, they're all required. Failing to provide any of them is simply rude, and can cause problems getting answers to people on the freebsd mail lists. > > > > > Maybe you need another haircut :) or your mails do, they're too long > > > > > on top. There is no earthly reason to quote an entire mail on top of > > > > > each of your mails. If your mail client doesn't allow you to delete > > > > > lines[1], maybe you could bottom quote instead. Some people don't > > > > > like it, but it's better than forcing your readers to wade through > > > > > lines and lines of irrelevant stuff which they've read already, before > > > > > getting to your point... > > > > If your mail reader is that broken, don't quote. All the stuff that's > > > > been read before is irrelevant whether it's on the top or the bottom. > > > If you receive more that around 20 emails a day, *some* form of > > > quoting is essential, otherwise keeping track will be impossible. > How about adding a few spaces between those lines, to distinguish > paragraphs more clearly? A carriage-return character wouldn't consume > significant bandwidth and it would make the whole thing much more > readable. Feel free. Personally, I format quoted material to minimize vertical space - which is in line with the goal originall given for top posting in this thread - not to make it easy to read. I don't expect most people to read that text at all. <mike -- Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/consulting.html Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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