Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 10:33:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com> To: dennis@et.htp.com (dennis) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why Linux? (fwd) Message-ID: <199508201533.KAA14027@brasil.moneng.mei.com> In-Reply-To: <199508191528.LAA15902@mail.htp.com> from "dennis" at Aug 19, 95 11:28:14 am
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> >There is certainly a case to be made that FreeBSD excels at these things, > >and I agree that at least *part* of the focus must target this market! > >[much good stuff deleted] > > You don't have to sell me on FreeBSD, Joe. I like it. I'm using it as my > platform for our router/server product. I'm putting one up next week (NYNEX > willing) as our main Web/FTP server. Ok, good, glad to hear it :-) ;-) > >FreeBSD has done a lot to make that easy should I choose to use their > >package-ized or port-ed versions - so I feel that the FreeBSD team has > >an answer for an ISP who does not want to roll his/her own system. > >(I nearly sh***ed bricks when a friend told me he installed CERN httpd on his > >system by doing little more than typing "make; make install" and installing > >his home page) > > Yes, you're right. But the problem is that NOBODY knows about these things, > and it very difficult to find out that these things are available unless > someone in the inner circle feels like telling you about it. THATs the > problem. And you can't count on anyone to tell you anything. The only time > anyone ever responds to me is when I say something inflamatory....so I have > to word my questions in a way thats going to piss someone off in order to > get an answer. It's a helluva way to do business. I thought all this stuff could actually be done right off the boot floppy? Again, I guess I haven't tried, but it seems to me from what I've heard from others that people DO know about these things, and they are very actively using them. I guess that's only a real small sampling based on the discussions that I have had with others, but I am having some trouble seeing the picture you are painting - even just a casual look around the FTP site reveals references to ports in README.TXT, not to mention the ports and packages directories (and I didn't look too hard). It could be possible that it is not documented well enough, I suppose. But that's an issue that does not have to be dealt with by changing the focus of the whole group... > >And with the number of people I've seen here in the Milwaukee area using > >FreeBSD, I would have to say that there's a much larger market out there for > >a damn good desktop UNIX. And - FreeBSD is it! Or - Linux is it (and the > >local Linux population is rather larger). Given the assertion that I would > >make (which is: "The ISP's _already_ use FreeBSD and are quite happy"), > >what's the next logical market to chase after? > > They're not ready to chase after the next market. They need market exposure, > and the best way to get exposure is by focusing on their strengths. They > can't compete with Macs or Windows, at least not yet. And if they try to > market by bashing accepted platforms they're just going to shoot themselves > in the foot. Hey, come on, it's cool to do it. I mean, look at OS/2, Windows NT, Solaris, SCO, etc. Everybody bashes on DOS and Doze because even most of the people who DO accept them do so largely out of necessity. THAT's a damn shame. :-/ I'd rather see WINE up and running... then some of that goes away. > It's like the old UNIX guy who arrogantly says "DOS is not an > Operating System, and neither is WINDOWS". Truth is truth. And generally it's not just the UNIX folks - it's every serious CS person who has ever worked on a real operating system of any type. However, the market doesn't necessarily care. I watched what happened with VHS and Beta. Myself, I still like 3/4" tape. > And the "Linux is a Toy". I've > yet to encounter 1 Linux user who wasn't thrilled beyond comprehension with > it. You need to meet a few who have had problems then. ;-) I've seen both. Then again I've seen both when you substitute FreeBSD for Linux too. Typically it seems like end users who do not try to port software and/or use the system to write software for other platforms are definitely tickled pink with Linux. > As for DOS and WINDOWs, well its on 95% of all of the machines in the > world. You can't sell by saying that something that works doesn't work. > People aren't that stupid. People are INCREDIBLY stupid, what are you talking about. I spent a number of years as an assistant manager at a grocery store and I will attest to the fact that you certainly CAN sell whatever you want however you want to 90% of the population - if you market it right. How's that go, "I can sell dead fish to the Board of Health, given an appropriate budget and a free hand"... > I've got a book on my shelf call "UNIX System Administration" by 4 supposed > UNIX gurus. There's a section in there on WAN communications, in which they > bash virtually every type of serial network every created. They even bash > RS-232. Being my specialty, Its obvious that they have no experience or > understanding of the subject matter. Or perhaps all too much experience and not enough understanding under UNIX, more likely. UNIX has traditionally suffered lots of damage in the serial comms dep't, caused by an incredible "variety" of both hardware and software implementations, none of which quite work the same way.... I think breakout boxes were designed because of UNIX sometimes. Think of it... dial in/out implementations are a prime example. Because UNIX has traditionally supported modems in funny ways (uugetty, no kernel support for bidir, often no kernel or hardware support for some or all of the hardware handshaking lines, etc etc) serial ports under UNIX have a deservedly shitty reputation. Myself, coming from a background where I was writing 1200 baud modem chipset drivers a decade ago, and other fun stuff, I have a very clear notion of how I expect a serial port implementation to work (and boy do I enjoy AT command set modems!). FreeBSD comes very close, with SunOS in second place. However that does not do much to improve the reputation of UNIX in general. Face it - it often does smell like rotten fish :-( and you just have to pray and hope that you can make it work somehow because the mfr decided a 3 line interface was sufficient. If serial comms under UNIX scares me, I can just imagine what the average UNIX hack thinks of it. Although since I have switched to 95% FreeBSD for all of my serial comms stuff, I have been sleeping better. ;-) > In fact, they make fools of themselves > with some of their statements. Now word is thats its a pretty good book. But > how can I accept their views on any subject when I know for a fact that they > are so arrogant and ignorant about another? Because we all have our strong points. Yet sometimes the requirements of the real world force us to extend into other areas where we only have a minimal understanding of the true issues. I am very mechanically inclined, yet since I don't have any automotive training or experience I generally let the local shop fix my car. Actually the same is true within CS - while I can write graphical programs or small end user applications, I generally don't, because there are others who DO do it better. However I tend to have a good background in systems type stuff and people who watch me hacking on a problem have been known to claim that I make them dizzy. Yet if I were to have to write a book about UNIX, I might have to write about things that are not in my area of specialty. I am not saying that they should be excused - but I always read books while keeping salt handy. And WAN communications is something of a black art.... maybe something that can be made easier, given FreeBSD and things like your product. ;-) I see a lot of potential in your product... ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/342-4847
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