Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:16:42 -0400 From: Chris Brennan <xaero@xaerolimit.net> To: Martin Sugioarto <martin@sugioarto.com> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: http://www.freebsd.org/marketing/os-comparison.html Message-ID: <4E5E505A.9020604@xaerolimit.net> In-Reply-To: <20110831140729.24130ea0@zelda.sugioarto.com> References: <4E5941D6.9090106@zedat.fu-berlin.de> <4E5BEF65.2010502@gmail.com> <4E5CAD9E.6050903@rktmb.org> <4E5CB49F.50806@zedat.fu-berlin.de> <4E5CBC14.4080908@rktmb.org> <4E5CF1ED.2030504@zedat.fu-berlin.de> <4E5CF417.5080503@rktmb.org> <4E5D031E.2000602@xaerolimit.net> <20110831140729.24130ea0@zelda.sugioarto.com>
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On 8/31/2011 8:07 AM, Martin Sugioarto wrote:
> Am Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:34:54 -0400
> schrieb Chris Brennan <xaero@xaerolimit.net>:
>=20
>> the object is to show people *WHY* FreeBSD is a sound (and valid)
>> choice against the competition, we can't just claim we're better
>> because we know we are, we have to provide a convincing argument that
>> is true and honest fact.
>=20
> Hi Chris and all the others,
>=20
> I want to suggest that you shouldn't compare every single feature about=
> FreeBSD kernel. You should not also try to lie to people about vendor
> support, because it's not worth mentioning, when you compare it to many=
> Linux distributions. Don't tell people there are games and don't tell
> them that FreeBSD can replace Microsoft Windows, please.
My argument wasn't designed to compare every little feature of FreeBSD
to other OS's of choice, but to show, in an overall comparison where
FreeBSD stands, both positive and negative in retrospect to our
competition. That can give us a look at the system as it is and see
what's broke, not in real time, but in a post-time aspect, as the
competition may see it.
I *never* advocated we lie to anyone, perhaps you misunderstood me when
I was saying we should be *honest* about the comparison. But I am left
with two questions now;
1. Why should we not tell them that games are available on FreeBSD?
2. Why should we not advocate *BSD or Linux as an alternative to
Windows? OS X?
As to Vender support, all I think we should do is a simple list (with
links) of who is confirmed as to use FreeBSD. Of course this would
direct traffic, so we would need to take care as to make sure that a)
FreeBSD could handle the traffic from Vendors directing people to
freebsd.org and that b) they can handle the traffic we direct to them.
It would look bad for both us and them if one or the other cause one (or
both) to disappear due to a traffic overload. (In reality, this might
not happen, but better to expect the worst...)
> I like to advertise FreeBSD, but I try to do it honestly, because it
> will send the wrong signals.
My arguments were for an honest comparison, and I thought I made that
*abundantly* clear. I guess I missed something when I proofread my e-mail=
=2E
> You should compare what you can *DO* better with FreeBSD. And one thing=
> that comes instantly into my mind is the FreeBSD port collection (for
> my part). I've tried various Linux distributions for years and there is=
> no such thing as FreeBSD ports in Linux world (portage comes close, but=
> it lacks integrity sometimes). And that's why after using other OSes, I=
> always arrived back on FreeBSD. The effort which is going into ports is=
> amazing and (for me) the most important part of the OS. FreeBSD is one
> of few systems where you can have configurable up-to-date applications
> and this is what I need. And this is mostly the reason why I use
> FreeBSD.
Absolutely, you are correct. FreeBSD Port collection is a diamond in the
rough, the gem that gives us light (in a sense at last). Gentoo's
portage does come close, and it does this because the concept is based
on the FreeBSD Ports collection.
> I suggest that you look at the applications of FreeBSD in the world.
> How people use it and why the decided to use it. I heard many people
> prefer FreeBSD on web servers (yeah, Netcraft also says so). But why?
One thing FreeBSD will always have over Linux, OS X and Windows is Age,
we all will get older, but FreeBSD will still be the eldest child. With
age comes Wisdom? There are all kinds of adages to go here, take your
pick, fill in the black, use what ever floats your boat. But you are
right, testimonials would be ideal, but they have an inherent flaw in
them. They can be easily faked. So how do we get passed this?
> You tell me that FreeBSD has the best IPv6 implementation? So what?!
> Please tell me what you do with it, when it's "so great".
I can't answer this one, I know very little about IPv6 still, but I
agree, you do make a valid argument, we should be told what we can do
with it in plain speak, not technobable that will confuse the
uninitiated, which would be unfair to them. The handbook does try to
cover this concept, by usage language that is familiar to a broad
spectrum of people. Maybe some of this should be reviewed and updated?
> Jails are nice, yes! There are surely scenarios where jails are needed
> above every other concept. Instead of telling people about "lightweight=
> virtualisation"... tell them what others do with it.
Sure, no reason not to. Maybe a FreeBSD sanctioned (and maintained)
howto guide for the (above) uninitiated that teaches end-users how to
use jails from the start, from an absolutely fresh install of FreeBSD,
start with jailing the most obvious services and then move to a loose
construct that will allow them to jail other services on their own. Show
them how, hold their hand (at first) and then give them the tools to do
the work on their own. If they get stuck, they can always fallback to
that howto guide where they know the information *IS* correct.
> Many people are too dumb to understand technical or abstract concepts.
> They need examples to understand the features.
Yes! I know I do, many times, I need to see *HOW* it's done to
understand *WHY* it works that way. It's how my brain works. My math
teachers in school were always amazed and baffeled (and maybe a little
intimidated) because I could reverse-engineer my math problems by having
the answer already. Because going backwards gave my mind the mechanics
it needed to understand what's going on. I learned how to put a computer
together by studying computers that were already built. So yes, I
heartily agree with you here.
> --
> Martin
--=20
> Chris Brennan
> --
> A: Yes.
> >Q: Are you sure?
> >>A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
> >>>Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
> http://xkcd.com/84/ | http://xkcd.com/149/ | http://xkcd.com/549/
> GPG: D5B20C0C (6741 8EE4 6C7D 11FB 8DA8 9E4A EECD 9A84 D5B2 0C0C)
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