Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 17:34:19 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> To: Brad Knowles <brad.knowles@skynet.be> Cc: Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@online.fr>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: English dying out? (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <20020526173419.G43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <p05111707b9163caa175b@[10.0.1.11]> References: <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <p0511170eb9127dabc846@[10.0.1.8]> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <p05111701b9153139e9ea@[10.0.1.11]> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <p05111702b9156e964b77@[10.0.1.11]> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> <p05111703b915c7110858@[10.0.1.11]> <20020526105823.A43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> <p05111707b9163caa175b@[10.0.1.11]>
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On Sunday, 26 May 2002 at 9:31:57 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:58 AM +0930 2002/05/26, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> The older English-speaking people seem to be inflexible and unwilling >> to learn French (or any other foreign language), while the younger >> English-speaking people seem to care a lot less about the English >> language (as a whole). >> >> So what's the trend? > > Are the younger English-speaking people not paying as much > attention to the language? Are they tending to learn other languages > instead of spending extra time learning English? Yes, definitely (though they're not doing very much of either). > Are they tending to ignore the rules by which the language has > "lived" for hundreds of years? Most definitely. I first went to England 40 years ago. In that time, the spoken language has changed dramatically (for the worse AFAIC). I haven't seen a corresponding change in French. > While I might concede the first point, I certainly will not > concede the other two, yet I see those things happening with French. Well, first you live in Belgium, not in France, and the rules are different there. Secondly, I contend that the French speaking people you mix with are not typical of French society. I don't know too many French people who are interested in learning other languages (though it's quite possible that the Waloons are different here). >> Most people in any country don't look on their language as >> something special. They're certainly not overly interested in >> learning another language, and that's the reason that very few of >> these languages are going to die out. > > From what I've seen, the Dutch, Flemish, and Danish people in > particular are extremely sensitive to the fact that there are so few > people in the world that speak their language, and they tend to learn > other languages, as well as going well out of their way to keep their > own language alive. Indeed, they will frequently learn multiple > dialects of their language. Agreed. It's exactly this attempt to protect their languages which will stop it from dying out. > It is this concerted effort by the masses (young and old > alike) that I feel will be sufficient to help ensure that these > languages don't die out. And this is precisely what I *don't* see > happening with French -- while the old people may be trying to keep > the language "alive", the young people largely couldn't seem to care > less, and certainly there is no concerted effort by the masses to > keep it "alive". Yes, but do you see this in English? French is much more widely spoken than Flemish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian put together. It's not in any danger, and people don't see it as such. > The Dutch, Flemish, and Danish people seem to consider their > language a point of pride, whereas the French-speaking people (that > is, the ones who care) seem only to be largely offended by the fact > that it is no longer the "Lingua Franca" of the world. Again, I think this is partially showing your perspective. The French people I know are very proud of their language. > If population A is small but vigorous and adaptive, and > population B is larger but sluggish and indifferent, which do you > think is more likely to survive when assaulted by an external and > extremely powerful force? That depends on what we're talking about. Given that the Western European languages have been around in recognizable form for 1000 years, despite outside influences and occupations, I don't see any mismatch of power causing them to go away quickly. Indeed, the existence of so many dialects speaks against that. > Sure, it may take some time for population B to finally die > out, and there is the chance that it might wake up and take a more > active approach towards survival, but if nothing else changes then > it will only be a matter of time before they are gone or so > completely assimilated as to be effectively gone. This happens so seldom that it's barely worth mentioning. Which language spoken by more than 5000 people has gone extinct in your experience? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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