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Date:      Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:41:07 -0500
From:      Bryan Drewery <bdrewery@FreeBSD.org>
To:        Robert Simmons <rsimmons0@gmail.com>
Cc:        Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com>, Bryan Drewery <bdrewery@freebsd.org>, freebsd-ports <freebsd-ports@freebsd.org>, Kimmo Paasiala <kpaasial@gmail.com>
Subject:   Re: Growing list of required(ish) ports
Message-ID:  <5162BAE3.6080202@FreeBSD.org>
In-Reply-To: <CA%2BQLa9Dhzp%2BGJvGA9MWVL8Yf=upp2tia-2rzaAbQ00GAhRAkLA@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <CA%2BQLa9Af3CC=FKMkrnmSL_-frW7ZvCQJ3=q7xkHUz5-3YyE3fQ@mail.gmail.com> <51622F44.3050604@FreeBSD.org> <CA%2BQLa9C5pfcRWrLXEiKzZEvVYd5W=wbN9i5wjtp=m92Fn8oq5w@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B7WWSfwGBfXRcmc0UJ2ebguq5%2B-pYY82eopicpPcgeKxUCj3A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN6yY1ttmkiV_ns1qfhjd8ROiZ8WfUfmaj%2Ba1N6Ezapj3-QNcw@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2BQLa9Dhzp%2BGJvGA9MWVL8Yf=upp2tia-2rzaAbQ00GAhRAkLA@mail.gmail.com>

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On 4/8/2013 1:55 AM, Robert Simmons wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 1:11 AM, Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 8:34 PM, Kimmo Paasiala <kpaasial@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Robert Simmons <rsimmons0@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Bryan Drewery <bdrewery@freebsd.org=
>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/7/2013 8:47 PM, Robert Simmons wrote:
>>>>>> Are there plans to get the following ports moved into HEAD?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) ports-mgmt/pkg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) ports-mgmt/dialog4ports
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) ports-mgmt/portaudit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) ports-mgmt/portmaster
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seems to me like these belong in the base system.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the contrary, the idea is that more and more should come *out of=

>>>>> base* and into ports. Base is very static and stuck in time. By mov=
ing
>>>>> these things into ports, you are able to get updates much simpler. =
No
>>>>> need for an errata or security advisory or release. Just updating w=
ith
>>>>> portmaster/pkg upgrade.
>>>>
>>>> I understand where you're coming from, but perhaps there needs to be=

>>>> movement in both directions.
>>>>
>>>> I may be way off the mark here, but I'd love to spark a discussion
>>>> about this.  I think that in general things that are directly FreeBS=
D
>>>> projects belong in base.  Examples would be pkgng, and making
>>>> dialog4ports a switch in dialog(1).  Essentially, code that does not=

>>>> have an upstream should be in base.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, there are a number of things that I think should =
be
>>>> pulled out of base.  Some already have ports, and others would need
>>>> ports created.  Examples of things to pull out of base are OpenSSL,
>>>> Heimdal, OpenSSH, PF, ntpd, ipfilter, bind, sendmail, and others.
>>>> Code that is typically way behind the upstream project basically.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> portaudit is not needed with pkg, just use 'pkg audit'.
>>>>
>>>> I had missed that.  Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, is there a reason why dialog4ports's functionality wasn't ad=
ded
>>>>>> to dialog(1) as a switch?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Bryan Drewery
>>>>> bdrewery@freenode/EFNet
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> I think Bryan already explained the reasons why pkg should not be in
>>> base, it's an external tool that is not strictly required to get a ba=
re
>>>
>>> bones FreeBSD system up and running. Including it in base you create
>>> yet another maintainance burden and would slow down the development o=
f
>>> the ports/packages management tools.
>>>
>>> -Kimmo
>>
>>
>> What people seem to miss is that putting tools into the base system
>> strangles the tools. Look at the difficulty we have seen in updating
>> openssl. perl was removed from base for exactly that reason. Once some=
thing
>> is in base, it usually can only be updated  on major releases and even=
 then
>> it can be very complicated. That is a problem for any dynamically chan=
ging
>> tool.
>>
>> I would love to see BIND removed from base, but most of the things  yo=
u
>> listed really are hard to remove. I know that I don't want to try brin=
ging
>> up a new install of FreeBSD on a remote system without OpenSSH and tha=
t
>=20
> OpenSSH is the only one that doesn't follow the same pattern.  It
> seems that the port of it has been abandoned going on 2 years.  It is
> lagging far far behind 9-stable which looks like DES bumped to 6.1 and
> HEAD has been bumped to 6.2p1.

This is my fault. I am working on updating it to 6.2 for after the freeze=
=2E

>=20
>> pulls in openssl.  In the case of many tools, it really turns into a
>> bikeshed. But i can see no reason to add any of the new packaging tool=
s
>> simply because it is critical that updates be possible far  more often=
 than
>> is possible for the base system.
>> --
>> R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer
>> E-mail: rkoberman@gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscribe@freebsd.org=
"
>=20


--=20
Regards,
Bryan Drewery
bdrewery@freenode/EFNet


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