Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 21:19:51 +1000 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes Message-ID: <19981021211951.08236@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <362CFFEA.328A17E9@gorean.org>; from Studded on Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 02:26:02PM -0700 References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au> <362CFFEA.328A17E9@gorean.org>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
On Tue, Oct 20, 1998 at 02:26:02PM -0700, Studded wrote:
> Removing a discussion from its originating environment does a
> disservice to both the "new" list (because they are asked to comment on
> something that they don't have a context for) and the "old" list
> (because the members of that list might not see the responses).
> Therefore I'm sending this back to -newbies.
>
> Sue Blake wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 03:28:48PM -0700, Graeme Tait wrote:
> > > Studded wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sue Blake wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My suggestions for newbies are:
> > > > >
> > > > > - Don't try to be first kid on the block with a new version.
> > > > > Let the expert and the gullible fall into any holes first.
> > > >
> > > > I would extend this to say, "Never install a FreeBSD -RELEASE." I don't
> > > > remember the last time a -Release didn't create a bunch of errors due to
> > > > last minute cramming in of things. Watch the -Stable mailing list (for
> > > > 2.2.x) and wait for things to calm down a bit after the -Release and
> > > > then install the latest -Stable.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, this business of FreeBSD versions certainly is confusing for this newbie. My
> > > understanding is that what gets issued with Greg Lehey's book is -RELEASE (mine
> > > being 2.2.6R).
> >
> > That's part of the confusion I suggested was avoidable by using
> > -questions if doing non-standard things. And it's another damn good
> > reason for having discussions with the experts held in the place where
> > experts hang out to help, freebsd-questions. There they present
> > opinions which are open to review by their peers. Any difference of
> > opinion is clarified quickly in that exposed forum, at any level. In
> > -newbies we have no frame of reference and every talker is a god.
>
> As I recall, this was one of my objections to the creation of the
> -newbies list. I'm glad that you're seeing things my way finally. :)
You are the only person who has (and repeatedly) caused it to
become a problem. The only one. Makes ya kinda wonder why :)
> > I was recommending, only from what I've been told as a newbie, that in
> > general -RELEASE is what newbies should be looking at unless there's a
> > strong reason to do otherwise. It was only a guess. Now we have a
> > learned view that newbies should never deal with a -RELEASE but should
> > consider that their last option, after -STABLE and -CURRENT.
>
> No one (certainly not me) said anything of the sort. As I commented in
> my last post I should have prefaced my comment with, "If you are
> upgrading from the net anyway, . . ." However I'm guessing that sue
> wrote this one before reading my last. If further clarification is
> needed I'll be happy to do what I can.
>
> > (Personally I can't understand what goes on in freebsd-stable let alone
> > freebsd-current but I'm just thick).
>
> -stable is a low-traffic list that consists primarily of discussion
> about what should and should not be included in the -stable branch, and
> discussion of how to deal with changes that are made. Questions germane
> to the topic are always welcome on freebsd-stable so new users shouldn't
> be intimidated by that list at all.
>
> > There are probably good reasons on
> > all sides, but who cares. We need square one, not squares 1 to 53.
>
> I care because I want to encourage new users to use the best version of
> FreeBSD that's available to them so they have the best experience
> possible. If a new user goes to releng22.freebsd.org and installs one of
> the -Stable snapshots they will have just as easy a time installing as
> if they were using a -Release version (probably easier in fact) and they
> will have a better FreeBSD experience because they will be avoiding any
> last minute problems that got crammed into a -Release.
>
> > OK, assembled learned helpers, sort it out for yourselves where you can
> > see each other, and put your final recommendation for what branch
> > newbies should be on into the handbook, if it's that important. We got
> > plenty to confuse ourselves with already without weighing up the big
> > fish in our pond.
>
> I'm not sure exactly what the above paragraph means, however I will try
> to make what I think is a related point. I stated an opinion about what
> version of FreeBSD I think new users will have the best experience with,
> and Greg expressed a slightly different opinion. For my money it's a
> good thing for new users to see people with differing opinions
> discussing a topic, especially when the discussion takes place in a
> forum that they should be comfortable in.
>
> In some ways my opinion about the need for a new users list has
> changed. I think that it has value and I'm glad to do what I can to help
> with it. However I think that attempting to isolate new users from
> differences of opinion is a mistake.
Experts' radical opinions bestowed upon -newbies, where they will not
be challenged by equal peers, are one of the things that can isolate
new users from differences of opinion. When they are wrong,
misunderstood, or contentious, we have a problem. This is not the first
time, is it, Doug. That's why they need to be seen here, in -questions.
Final agreement should be recorded in the handbook if the advice
already there is in error, but at minimum the true picture should be
archived in -questions.
I for one would like to see more opinions on the release issue, and not
from newbies. Until the opinions can stand up to the full range of
experience, they are just a confusing pompous noise. The pros and cons
need to be in the -questions archives which is where people will
search. Let's be constructive, not disruptive.
> As has been mentioned here previously this list contains all levels
> of "new users," and trying to cram them all into your (sue's) view of
> the "one true way" does all of them a disservice.
There is no "one true way" other than the list charter and the view of
the majority of the community that cooperation is the way to succeed.
It has nothing to do with any individuals. If you hate the list so
much, I can't imagine why it's more important to you than helping
newbies in -questions. This is where you're needed, in -questions.
It might be a little harder, but it's much appreciated. The points you
raised about -stable will be valuable to many who read -questions,
no need to restrict them to a subset of users.
Sorry about the thick skin. I'm here to learn and enjoy and cooperate
with those who will, for just as long as it is pleasant to do so.
But you know that.
Good luck!
> Doug
> --
> *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network ***
>
> Go PADRES!
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
--
Regards,
-*Sue*-
To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?19981021211951.08236>