Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:06:37 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy <jktheowl@bga.com> To: Das Devaraj <das@netcom.com> Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980414223351.256X-100000@barnowl> In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9804132025.A24573-0100000@netcom4>
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Das, (Greetings!) I can sympathize with the discussion below and the experience of your friends. I had the advantage of some System V experience some (long) years ago. But, I had essentially forgotten all. I was attempting an install from a DOS partition. I think the problem for the newest user can be sumarised by saying that I had no common cognative framework. No shared cognates to borrow an old (very...;-)) term from my anthropologist past. RTFM for me, it was what I was telling myself to do, was of no use. Instructions that now seem _painfully_ obvious in intent,(What does "download all the dists" mean?) were understandable but useless. What helped was to read "Learning the UNIX Operating System", by Todino, Strang, and Peek, O'Reilly. It was simple, read in a couple of hours, and provided a needed frame of reference. After asking a few questions of the list to clarify things particular to the FreeBSD way of organizing things, I successfully installed a running system. I agree with what I think you are suggesting, but I do not think the technical obstacles are insurmountable. Give the newbie a few "common cognates" with which to build a frame of reference. Would it be worthwhile to see if O'Reilly would let us do a FreeBSD version of this book for inclusion with the CD? A kind of Newbie Option? Just an idea, Cheers. John On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Das Devaraj wrote: > On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > > > > - Specify whom this system is for > > > (currently FreeBSD seems geared for server applications) > > > > This is not really true. It seems that way because there is ashortage of > > desktop type applications. > > When I installed Apache on FreeBSD 2.2.5 *think* it brought up > six copies. Surely, a set-up for a server? :-) Granted these > things are easy enough to correct (fix?), if one reads the > accompanying documentation. The standard installation(?) also > installed other server type stuff (like sendmail). Sorry don't > have the machine close by, otherwise would have given the exact > list. Also FreeBSD seems to be infinitely customizable (which > is a good thing). Normally this extreme flexibility is given > for server type systems. > > > > We are not going to hit the MS desktop. The completeness and > > ease of use for most is there. > > My plan was not to go against the MS desktop. Also I am > not implying that the completeness and ease are lacking. Only > that it is well hidden, unless you have a certain amount of > computer knowledge or proficiency. > > A buddy of mine wanted a high end OS (don't know why) and I > recommended FreeBSD. After two months and going through three > books, he still did not have a high end OS :-( So he went the > NT route. Now he is planning to buy a used true UNIX box. > > RTFM is the mantra which is chanted quite often as an cure for > this. But IMHO, somebody coming in cold will have a very steep > learning curve, even to have a basic working system. A very > interesting point to consider is that the person mentioned > in the previous paragraph, who valiantly struggled for two > months, has a doctorate degree - not in CS :-) > > > > If not a server or a common desktop, then what? > > I deal with a lot with newbies (in fact I am in the middle of > starting a Unix training center, in Pleasant Hill, CA). Just in > the last couple of months, the contractor who worked in my office > suite, fast food restaurant manager, real estate person, medical > doctor and other folks have expressed an interest in learning > Unix! RTFM is not going to cut with folks like these. > > FreeBSD is currently geared for an extremely technical audience. > That is why I followed the -newbies list with interest to see > how that would go. They allow only meta-level discussions (like > how to solve a problem and not the actual solution). Know why > they do it ["teach a person to fish..." - not a vegan thing to > do :-) ]. My take is, if somebody is bleeding from a cut, > administer the first aid -- not stick a first aid book in the > victim's hand and say RTFM. > > FreeBSD well may be targeted at an educated, technically elite > audience. Everything that I see points towards that. My point > is very simple - it may be very difficult or even impossible for > the current FreeBSD structure to cater to anybody else. That > is why I suggested that a different organization to try to market > FreeBSD (under a different name) to businesses, real newbies etc. > for a price. Not that I did not say anything hacking the kernel > or other tech wizardry - just repacking. > > > > UI for a more graphical desktop/system manager. People getfreaked out > > when they have to deal with the system itself. > > Everything from permissions to installing software. Who can > > we really appeal to in a mass market? > > You are right about people getting freaked out. At each step > of the installation process, the question is "now what?" After > everything is done, it is "What do I click?" My guess is that > some of the same newbies would not have a problem with RedHat > Linux - I am planning to do some tests. Getting a successful > installation itself will be an achievement for many. > > One quick anecdote - a buddy of mine, an NT admin, wanted to > desperately setup a Unix server at his work -- resume reads > better, he gets more money, now that he knows Unix etc). > My recommendation was to go with FreeBSD. Since the whole > show was happening at his office, could not really help him > more than that. In more than a month, he could not get his > system up and running. Too many things to read. > > To answer your question about the market, these are the > markets the "repackaged/renamed" FreeBSD will try to cover. > If it is possible to get branded also, it would be even > better. > > > > Are we tring to put ourselves more squarely > > in the Unix Server market or are we going after > > the home user that plays with Linux now, but > > may be interested in something more serious. > > Or something else? > > I don't view Linux as our enemy. Just brotherly rivalry, > that is all. The recreational user and corporate market, as > was mentioned before was what I had in mind. > > das > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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