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Date:      Mon, 28 Aug 2023 16:17:34 -0500
From:      Jake Freeland <jake@technologyfriends.net>
To:        Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
Cc:        Alexey Dokuchaev <danfe@freebsd.org>, Warner Losh <imp@freebsd.org>, src-committers@freebsd.org,  dev-commits-src-all@freebsd.org, dev-commits-src-main@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: git: af93fea71038 - main - timerfd: Move implementation from linux compat to sys/kern
Message-ID:  <CAOgZAGYykL1j1%2BUhcb68RYj1y93yN8gd90R9evjZrRRX_gkUyA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAOgZAGa7%2BOGmPsAu=OyaMvva2Bw9CLPJLPucvnFMyzXXDr3iag@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <202308242029.37OKTmVs091755@gitrepo.freebsd.org> <ZOyQQgOAap9L7OT1@FreeBSD.org> <CANCZdfqqahUmXxh6sGiPgiGUJCAqiyXjV-x8XT3Nku7007L7fw@mail.gmail.com> <CAOgZAGa7%2BOGmPsAu=OyaMvva2Bw9CLPJLPucvnFMyzXXDr3iag@mail.gmail.com>

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On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 4:12=E2=80=AFPM Jake Freeland <jake@technologyfrien=
ds.net>
wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 11:19=E2=80=AFAM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wro=
te:
>
>> Added cc for Jake
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 6:17=E2=80=AFAM Alexey Dokuchaev <danfe@freebsd.=
org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 08:29:48PM +0000, Warner Losh wrote:
>>> > commit af93fea710385b2b11f0cabd377e7ed6f3d97c34
>>> >
>>> >   timerfd: Move implementation from linux compat to sys/kern
>>> >
>>> >   Move the timerfd impelemntation from linux compat code to sys/kern.
>>>
>>> Could you quickly summarize why we need these linuxish bits in FreeBSD?
>>> We've lived for years without it.  Had expected to find the rationale
>>> in DR but alas. :(  Thanks,
>>>
>>
> The amount of software designed exclusively for Linux grows every day.
> Support for FreeBSD is almost always done on behalf of FreeBSD
> contributors, not the program developers.
>
> I do not want to play the cat-and-mouse game of constantly updating shims
> so we can support Linux software. I would rather take the sensible* parts
> of Linux and integrate them into core FreeBSD.
>
> My goal is not to turn FreeBSD into Linux, but rather to stay relevant in
> an age where most younger developers don't even know what BSD is. We shou=
ld
> spend more resources on Linux program support, so younger audiences can u=
se
> their Discord web apps natively on FreeBSD.
>

Sorry, this should say "Discord desktop apps", not "web apps".

Jake Freeland


>
> Absorbing "linuxish" bits is controversial and I think that is a tragedy.
> In my eyes, having "linuxish" features is one of the best ways to ease th=
e
> jump between Linux and FreeBSD, and minimize the maintenance needed for
> FreeBSD support.
>
> *
> https://ariadne.space/2021/06/06/actually-bsd-kqueue-is-a-mountain-of-tec=
hnical-debt/
>
> Jake Freeland
>
>
>> I'll let Jake answer this and
>>
>> > glibc misc/tst-timerfd test fails now under Linux emulation
>>
>> I think his new review https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41600 addresses this
>> issue maybe
>>
>> Warner
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 4:12=E2=80=AFPM J=
ake Freeland &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jake@technologyfriends.net">jake@technol=
ogyfriends.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 11:19=E2=80=AFAM Warner Losh &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
imp@bsdimp.com" target=3D"_blank">imp@bsdimp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Added cc for Jake</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 6:17=E2=80=
=AFAM Alexey Dokuchaev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danfe@freebsd.org" target=3D"_=
blank">danfe@freebsd.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 08:29:48PM +0000, Warner Lo=
sh wrote:<br>
&gt; commit af93fea710385b2b11f0cabd377e7ed6f3d97c34<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0timerfd: Move implementation from linux compat to sys/kern=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Move the timerfd impelemntation from linux compat code to =
sys/kern.<br>
<br>
Could you quickly summarize why we need these linuxish bits in FreeBSD?<br>
We&#39;ve lived for years without it.=C2=A0 Had expected to find the ration=
ale<br>
in DR but alas. :(=C2=A0 Thanks,<br></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div><div>The amount of software designed exclusively=C2=A0fo=
r Linux grows every day. Support for FreeBSD is almost always done on behal=
f of FreeBSD contributors, not the program developers.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>I do not want to play the cat-and-mouse game of constantly updating sh=
ims so we can support Linux software. I would rather take the sensible* par=
ts of Linux and integrate them into core FreeBSD.</div><div><br></div><div>=
My goal is not to turn FreeBSD into Linux, but rather to stay relevant in a=
n age where most younger developers don&#39;t even know what BSD is. We sho=
uld spend more resources on Linux program support, so younger audiences can=
 use their Discord web apps natively on FreeBSD.</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Sorry, this should say &quot;Discord desktop =
apps&quot;, not &quot;web apps&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>Jake Freelan=
d</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div><br></div><div>Absorbi=
ng &quot;linuxish&quot; bits is controversial and I think that is a tragedy=
. In my eyes, having &quot;linuxish&quot; features is one of the best ways =
to ease the jump between Linux and FreeBSD, and minimize the maintenance ne=
eded for FreeBSD support.</div><div><br></div><div>*=C2=A0<a href=3D"https:=
//ariadne.space/2021/06/06/actually-bsd-kqueue-is-a-mountain-of-technical-d=
ebt/" target=3D"_blank">https://ariadne.space/2021/06/06/actually-bsd-kqueu=
e-is-a-mountain-of-technical-debt/</a></div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Jak=
e Freeland</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll let Jake=
 answer this and</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; glibc misc/tst-timerfd test =
fails now under Linux emulation<div></div><br></div><div>I think his new re=
view=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41600" target=3D"_blank">=
https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41600</a>; addresses this issue maybe</div><div=
><br></div><div>Warner</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

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