Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:24:46 -0400 From: Joshua Lee <yid@softhome.net> To: "Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com> Cc: dave@jetcafe.org, tlambert2@mindspring.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why did evolution fail? Message-ID: <20020904232446.0b55b1d5.yid@softhome.net> In-Reply-To: <20020904082510.X88455-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan> References: <20020903211527.1a0655b6.yid@softhome.net> <20020904082510.X88455-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan>
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On Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT)
"Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com> wrote:
> > > naturalism as a viable worldview. In fact, if naturalism is false
> > > its opposite, supernaturalism must be true.
> > >
> > > Moreover, not just any supernaturalism will do. It must provide
> > > the preconditions for rationality, ethics, science, human dignity,
> > > freedom, intellectual disagreements, etc.
> >
> > Exactly. Judaism. What, that wasn't the religion you had in mind?
> > ;-)
>
> Which is why I said that not just any supernaturalism will do. Old
> Testament Judaism is an aborted version of Christianity.
Funny, I don't think the "OT" seemed to indicate that one is supposed to
junk it at some point in the future in favor of worshiping the messiah.
> It is alsod
> no longer practiced today. If you were to propose what we now call
> Orthodox Judaism, I would have some very pointed questions regarding
> specific practices that occurred in the Old Testament. Orthodox
> Judaism repudiates the need for blood atonement and redemption, which
> means man can never know if he is in a right relationship with God.
Orthodox Judaism does not repudiate the superiority of the Temple as a
vehicle for inner repentance; we (I am an Orthodox Jew) pray every day
for the Temple's restoration because of that. However, we do repudiate
the idea that this is the only method of repentance or that it conveys
repentance in some sort of automated fashion; may I suggest that you
read Isaiah chapter I, Samuels after-death speach to King Saul
("obedience not sacrifices"), Hoseah's "sacrifices of the lips", and
many other passages in the prophets against that view.
> Moreover, whether or not you agree that the particular religion I
> propose is the One True Way,
My religion is not the One True Way for non-Jews. (Hence the wink.) The righteous of the gentiles have a portion in the World to Come. I have no inepitus for forcing my beliefs down other's throats; such as the belief that god will torture for eternity anyone that isn't my religion.
> naturalism is still refuted, so the
> objection you raise really doesn't help you much as a naturalist.
Well, I'm not a naturalist I suppose; or even an evolutionist, but that doesn't mean that I go on a crusade in a FreeBSD forum because messages have "evolution" in the subject line. If I was to take this sort of thing so millitantly I wouldn't be using an OS with a daemon as a logo.
> If you would like to seriously propose some other religion, we can
> talk about that.
I'd prefer not to. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
> > The problem with these sorts of philosophical conjectures is that
> > if, despite Kant's objections, they could be proven; they rarely
> > prove any particular religion's cogence.
>
> A particular religion's cogence must be analyzed from an internal
> perspective for coherence.
Tertullian was at least honest when he said "credo quia absurdum est".
> > Somehow I knew that since the subject line contained the word
> > "evolution" that the missionaries would come out of the woodwork.
>
> Or as Terry would put it, it is an "emergent" property. 8-)
If you admit without any intelectual shame that you react in such a
fashion to the word "evolution" I won't argue.
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