Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 14:13:10 -0400 From: Chris Marlatt <cmarlatt@rxsec.com> To: Doug Barton <dougb@FreeBSD.org> Cc: Adrian Chadd <adrian@freebsd.org>, FreeBSD Stable <freebsd-stable@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 Message-ID: <48482CB6.1000908@rxsec.com> In-Reply-To: <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <4846D849.2090005@FreeBSD.org> <4846E14C.709@FreeBSD.org> <AC78CAC0-BA7C-4A20-9BEE-E7E37FD225E7@netconsonance.com> <48472CCF.8080101@FreeBSD.org> <4847EF62.1070709@rxsec.com> <4847F814.10409@FreeBSD.org> <4847FB1D.1050400@rxsec.com> <d763ac660806050812o71329243lc7d58506490bd6b1@mail.gmail.com> <4848073C.2060509@rxsec.com> <484821EE.5070303@FreeBSD.org>
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Doug Barton wrote: > Chris Marlatt wrote: >> Adrian Chadd wrote: >>> The project is doing what it can with what people are contributing. If >> >> What if it can accomplish the same or more by simply reorganizing what >> it's already doing? > > I think that the problem here is that you have no idea how absurd you > sound to the people who are actually doing the work. Forgive me for not knowing how people I've never met or conversed with before would accept my proposal. I'll do better next time. > > Taking what you said at face value for a minute, a polite response > would be something along the lines of, "At this point in the project's > history we've already given lengthy and careful consideration to the > resources we have available, and how best to allocate them. FreeBSD is > a volunteer project, and with few exceptions those who put work into > it are doing it 'for fun,' and choose where they want to apply their > efforts. Suggestions are often made about where effort can be best > applied, some private, some public. But in the end it's the individual > developer who chooses what to work on, and the project leadership > tries to keep things moving smoothly with the resources available." > > Now let me approach this from another angle, which is how what you > said above can easily sound to us. "Hey you volunteers! It's great > that you're working on FreeBSD and giving it to me for free and all, > but what I really want you to do is this, so get to it will you?" I'm > sure you can imagine the response to that. > > And frankly, it doesn't even matter which way you _meant_ it. And > sure, you have the right to voice your opinion, all FreeBSD users do. > You also need to be prepared to take "no" for an answer. > So take a line from yourself. This isn't grade school. If you or members of your team can't take constructive criticism then you need to grow up. FreeBSD isn't a toy. Thousands of people rely on it for a variety of reasons. Which strangely enough is likely one of the primary reasons the team enjoys volunteering the time that they do. It means so much to so many people. However those same people are the ones who's concerns are being replied with "do it yourself or go away". I'm completely prepared to hear no - assuming it's a no with some sense behind it. As I've said more than once if it's a horrible idea fine. But it's one I haven't seen proposed before. >>> you'd like a distribution supported for longer then offer to help >>> maintain it. You may be surprised how helpful people get when you >>> offer to help. :0 >> >> Again IMHO the only message coming across here is either do it >> yourself or keep your mouth shut. > > That's not _exactly_ what we're saying, but it's pretty close. This is > open source after all. "If you can't find what you're looking for, > build it, or look elsewhere" would be a better way to say it. > >> The other side of the coin here is - what's to say the FreeBSD project >> requires what I can offer? > > Without trying to sound rude, I'm pretty sure the only person that's > going to matter to is you. I respectfully disagree. > >> Granted it's been sometime since I've browsed the entire FreeBSD.org >> site but last I checked there wasn't an area devoted to >> the needs of the project. > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?category=&severity=&priority=&class=&state=&sort=none&text=&responsible=&multitext=&originator=&release= > If the only thing the FreeBSD project is in need of is time to work on PR fixes than what I can offer isn't of much help. Which is why the ^original^ comment was made. > >> Furthermore, just because someone isn't providing assistance doesn't >> mean that their concerns should go unheard. > > This isn't the '80's, and we aren't in grade school. See above on > taking "no" for an answer. What does this have to do with the 80's and again no is a perfectly acceptable answer if it doesn't come along with a STFU. > >> It's quite possible what was proposed is an awful idea and if it is >> so be it. But it would appear as though it wasn't even considered. > > On the contrary. This, and lots of other ideas have been given very > careful consideration and have been rejected due to lack of resources. > There, feel better? Yes because "Uh yeah, this has been in place for *years*. Have you actually read the support announcements? They are public ;) " sounds exactly like careful consideration. > > Seriously folks, it's not as if we don't _want_ to be able to provide > better, longer, faster, $whatever support. We're just trying to be > realistic about what we can reasonably do with what we have available. > If you really want to then slow down the release schedule. I've seen a lot less "I _must_ have this feature" than "Whoa! why are we going to safe" threads. The project is creating a circumstance where offering extended support is not an option. > > hth, > > Doug > Regards, Chris
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