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Date:      Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:47:47 -0700 (MST)
From:      Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
To:        jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Cc:        terry@lambert.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation
Message-ID:  <199701220047.RAA20475@phaeton.artisoft.com>
In-Reply-To: <19473.853888025@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 21, 97 03:07:05 pm

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> > A weighted democracy would be one open-ended growth soloution, as
> > long as parametric changes could be made within the system.  I have
> > suggested this before.  A trivial napkin drawing version:
> 
> The complexity of this scheme mitigates heavily against its long-term
> success, as you might phrase it, and there are so many holes in the
> concept that I can hardly even begin to cite them.  First off it's
> complex, so someone (you?) would have to write a FAQ and explain this
> byzantine process to each and every newcomer.

It's not complex.  I've described the process in abstract; it only
*looks* complex, it doesn't *act* complex.


> There is also no clear
> picture of how these "tokens" accumulate.  Over time?  With commits?
> Because someone likes you?

Over time at an equal rate for everyone, I would hope.  I assume the
core team will decide on initial parameters as part of the process of
moving to the system.


> Who runs the votes

A program.

> and decides which matters are voted on?

Anyone with vote tokens left and an interest in the discussion.

> Voters also don't write bills, they just vote on existing ones - who
> writes the bills and takes care of introducing them?  What if no
> "bills" are generated - does the project just idle along or are people
> allowed to still make changes?  What sorts of changes?

All changes involving dissenting opinions.  Again, the core team is
who you should be asking this question, since you are really asking
"how much control is the core team giving away?".


> When is a change considered a "bug fix" and when is it considered
> something worthy of voting on?

It doesn't matter if its a "bug fix" or not.

It's worthy of voting on when the discussion results in a call
for votes.  If it doesn't, it wasn't worth voting on.


> Who decides this in cases where there is dissent about the
> vote-worthiness of an issue (since there would be some overhead
> in writing and presenting the bill), do you have a vote on a vote? :-)

Yes.  Simple majority on whether it's vote-worthy.

> Lastly, who do we get to work on the project when all the existing
> members quit in disgust over all this goddamn make-work which has
> suddenly entered their lives.

???

All this would do is add latency *and a means of resolving* hotly
contested issues.  Right now, hotly contested issues are tabled
and/or ignored.  This is an improvement.


> Like most political systems weighted heavily towards bureaucracy, this
> looks almost plausible on paper but is virtually guaranteed to be an
> unmitigated disaster when put into practice.

This system is weighted *against* bureaucracy, since obstructionist
tactics would only result in you spending all your tokens and having
to shut up while everyone else made progress without you.  That's
the point of users having a limited amount of tokens.

> Try again, and this time with a grounding strap firmly attached
> please.


Example:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	From: VoteBot
	Subject: TOPIC: ELF

	Freddy Kruger (Kruger@ElmStreet.org) has submitted the
	following policy topic for discussion:

	> FreeBSD should move from a.out to ELF.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	[ ... various amounts of discussion for 5 days ... ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	From: VoteBot
	Subject: TOPIC: ELF

	This is the votebot.  This discussion has lasted 5 days;
	if there is no call for votes by February 8th, 1997 (within
	the next 2 days), this policy topic will automatically
	become FreeBSD policy.

	To call for votes, send a message with the subject

		"POLL: ELF"

	to votebot@freebsd.org

						-- VOTEBOT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	[ ... heated last-ditch opposition ... ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	From: VoteBot
	Subject: POLL: ELF

	This is the votebot.  A vote has been requested for:

	> FreeBSD should move from a.out to ELF

	Place an [x] in the appropriate box and reply to this
	message:

	[ ] Yes, there should be a vote
	[ ] No, there should not be a vote

	All responses will be totalled on February 21st, 1997
	(7 days from now); if there are more "Yes" responses
	than "No" responses, a vote will be taken,  If there
	are more "No" responses, then the discussion will
	be reopened.

						-- VOTEBOT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	[ ... more discussion ... ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	From: VoteBot
	Subject: VOTE: ELF

	This is votebot.  The proposal to vote on the resoloution:

	> FreeBSD should move from a.out to ELF

	Has passed, 452 to 173.  To participate in the vote, place
	an [x] in the appropriate box and reply to this message:

	[ ] Yes, very strongly agree (3 vote tokens)
	[ ] Yes, strongly agree (2 vote tokens)
	[ ] Yes, agree (1 vote tokens)
	[ ] No, disagree (1 vote tokens)
	[ ] No, strongly disagree (2 vote tokens)
	[ ] No, very strongly disagree (3 vote tokens)

						-- VOTEBOT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	[ ... ongoing voting ... ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
	From: VoteBot
	Subject: VOTE PASSED: ELF

	The resolution:

	> FreeBSD should move from a.out to ELF

	Has passed 1170 to 490 with 621 people voting.

	The resolution has been automatically added to the FreeBSD
	policy page, which may be viewed at www.freebsd.org/policy

						-- VOTEBOT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.



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