Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:18:07 -0700 From: "Michael P. Sale" <mike@merchantsnet.com> To: "Nik Clayton" <nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk> Cc: <freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Lists, newbies & support Message-ID: <01bd9e0a$1b171100$3406bccc@708644668>
next in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
>> a. Fear of looking silly and don't think they can really contribute (yet) > >*How* do we break this barrier down? Part of it is trying to get people >not to be as sarcastic as they can be in -questions (anyone that saw a >response from caleb@<mumble> earlier today will know what I mean). Yes, it's always nice to find friendly people who need to prove their supiority lurking about. > >But what else? From a 'newbie' perspective, what would make you think that >your contribution was wanted? I really don't have a good answer to this. The truth is that I feel most newbie suggestions don't usually make very good contributions. Experience does tend to focus people a little better. For the most part, I think that most newbies recognize this as well. >From what I have seen in other newbie environments, multiple newbies working together end up making good contributions. As Sue has pointed out, this group has done a lot to further that thought. Again, I think that questions usually bring up more thought than simple discussions, because everybody wants to find an answer to a question while not everyone wants to participate in a discussion. The end result is that a question can turn into a better discussion than a started discussion can. Make sense? :-) > >> I also suspect that a newbies-questions group may allow some of the thoughts >> and input you are looking for. Free thinking unafraid questions tend to >> generate more thought and input than anything else I've found. > >I remain to be convinced about the value of a newbie-questions mailing >list. I suspect we will stay at odds here. I've listed so many reasons we should have a newbies-questions group in my previous emails I doubt I could even make some up at this point. > > 1. How do you know which list your message is more appropriate for? I think that it would be a slight problem, but not the one everyone is so worried about. The few questions that have been posted here have been pretty newbie in nature. > I suspect a lot of people with problems will post to both lists in the > hope that they'll catch someone who can help. Possible, but I think that it may be worth it for both the newbies and FreeBSD. > > The comp.unix.wizards newsgroup had the same problem. It was intended > for Unix wizards to swap wizardly ideas (<grin>) but was swamped by > people trying to get help. I guess that's the problem with going into a meeting room with no doors. :-) > > 2. Presumably fewer people knowledgable in FreeBSD and/or Unix will > read newbie-questions -- the quality of advice would therefore be > correspondingly lower. At least with one -questions the focus is > more tight. In my world (which nobody lives in but me) this would not be the case. The same people that want to help people in questions should want to help newbie questions as well. I suspect this is not the case though. Sad really, when you consider all the puffing about that FreeBSD makes when claiming it wants to grow. > > 3. Other 'question' mailing lists (-multimedia, -scsi, -database) are > split along easily understood lines. If you've got a problem with your > SCSI drive then it makes more sense to post to -scsi than it does to > -questions. I agree totally. The problem lies in the fact that FreeBSD is nothing like those other list types. We are talking about a product that few people use and that has little docs and no offical support. It needs more than other products to ensure it's survival. >There's no reason -newbies can't be the kind of place for 'free thinking >unafraid questions' that you spoke of. > >However, IMHO, those questions should be of the "What if?" and "How about?" >variety, not the "How do I?" kind. "What if?" and "How about?" only come after the "how do I?". If you don't know how something works, it's nearly impossible, IMO to ask a coherent "what if?" and "How about?" question. OK, here's the deal. I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince Sue and now you of the need for such a list. I'll now be quiet for a while. I would however like to leave with a few thoughts on this. This is a little long, but well worth it.---------------------------------------------------- I believe that the reason we have such a different opionion on this is because I am looking at it from a business and newbie perspective while everyone else seems to be looking at it from a technical perspective. Businesses that are successfull usually START with one of four things. I'll try and keep it in a fairly recent OS context. 1. New product. (Linux) 2. Better product than what is available. (Linux again) Yes, I used it for new, but it was new and it was cheaper than a sun station AND better than Microsoft. 3. Great marketing no matter what the product is. (Microsoft) 4. Target the new audience. (RedHat) I am pretty sure it is the first Linux variant to commercially sell their product in retail stores (not counting books with CD's). They have made a tremendous effort to get their product into the hands of new linux users through ease of use and support. So, how are we doing in the success dept? 1. It is too late for FreeBSD to be new. 2. While it may be better than Linux in some areas it is not currently "better enough" to succeed at proving that it is better without #3. 3. I'll be amazed when I see FreeBSD get together enough to do some shows at the very least. Money seems to be a problem for such things. (I'm not subscribed to advocacy and don't know what's happening there) 4. From what I've seen so far, this is simply not being done. The fact that we are having such a lively discussion about a newbies-question and who would support it is pretty much proof enough. Now, on this subject, I did recently see greg's book and four CD set in a bookstore recently. YAY!!.......Oooops, nevermind. It sat there with a pricetag of $60.00 US while it's Linux counterparts were a mere $30.00 - $50.00 US. Hello? Anybody home in the FreeBSD marketing department? Having said that I'll tell you the number one thing that keeps a company or product from growing. 1. Me too. (FreeBSD) Me too is when you have a product that does not distiguish itself from other products at first glance and expects to gather customers by stealing them from another company/product simply because it MAY be better. IMO, this is the core of FreeBSD's problems. FreeBSD is a great OS for people that have some unix experience and want to try out an OS that they have heard is more stable and secure. These folks understand unix terminology and in general are not afraid to ask questions in NG's. Again, the problem is that THESE ARE TYPICALLY THE HARDEST CUSTOMERS TO CATCH. Most (read almost %0.1 here) company's that want to be successfull do not target these types of customers. (Witness cigarette ads directed at kids) So, having established (In my mind anyway) the fact that FreeBSD's number one chance for success is new customers, take a look around and figure out just what FreeBSD is doing to catch and keep those customers. Not a lot IMO. If you have an answer for this, I have a challenge for you. 1. Send out an email to all FreeBSD groups with this question. How many people on this list have been here for over a year and before installing FreeBSD themselves had never used a unix variant? This does not count people that simply walked into a shop that runs BSD and had to learn it with the help of co-workers. I'll bet that you get a minimal response. If FreeBSD only wants customers that are familiar with unix, so be it. They are doing a fine job. It will continue to be a "techie" OS that is slow growing and will probably never really catch on. I am beginning to think that this is exactly what most of the "elders" at FreeBSD really want. They are probably already overworked and simply don't have a lot of time for truly newbie questions. While technically, everyone may be right about some of the initial problems a newbies-questions list would cause, I firmly believe that from a business AND NEWBIE perspective (getting more people involved, understanding and staying with FreeBSD) a newbies-questions list is just a minimal first step in the correct direction. OK, I'll be quiet again. (This should keep Sue happy for a while. I think the last time I uttered that I disapeared for two months) :-) Till next time, Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?01bd9e0a$1b171100$3406bccc>