Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:38:12 +0100 From: "Salvatore Albanese" <salvatore@oems.ch> To: <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> Subject: R: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 400, Issue 2 Message-ID: <000a01ce24e1$ae8e0e70$0baa2b50$@ch> In-Reply-To: <mailman.17.1363694401.72773.freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org> References: <mailman.17.1363694401.72773.freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
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-----Messaggio originale----- Da: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org] Per conto di freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org Inviato: marted=EC, 19. marzo 2013 13:00 A: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Oggetto: freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 400, Issue 2 Send freebsd-advocacy mailing list submissions to freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to freebsd-advocacy-request@freebsd.org You can reach the person managing the list at freebsd-advocacy-owner@freebsd.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of freebsd-advocacy digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk) 2. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav) 3. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk) 4. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Chris Benesch) 5. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav) 6. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Chris Benesch) 7. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Alexander Leidinger) 8. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk) 9. Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? (Mehmet Erol Sanliturk) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:04:20 -0700 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> Cc: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@leidinger.net>, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <CAOgwaMsf2xN0kptBt6j6N7xcvUF0xQK+JgosHRS54xc60fctUw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 4:33 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> writes: > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our=20 > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k=20 > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as=20 > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no > > > For me , actually , important problem is "How many packages are supplied with a distribution .iso ?" This point is important , because when a distribution is installed , whether it will produce a workable / usable environment for a (i) = server , or (ii) desktop user . I am continuously installing many Linux distributions . Approximately = they are supplying 2000 packages per distribution . With respect to selected features ( Desktop , Development , Education , etc. ) , the installed packages is varying between 1000 to 2500 . After completion of installation , it is possible to use the installed system without making any parameter adjustments . I am using KDE . The = only required adjustments are the following ( for me ) : >From KDE Settings ( when I try Gnome from its menus ) : Disable screen saver , Disable power saving , Disable gesture , etc. usage , Enable removable media automatic mount In Dolphin ( File Manager ) : Enable double click to activate a selection , Select view mode as = detailed , Select displayed file attributes , etc. These are the same for FreeBSD also ( except enable of automatic mount = of removable media , selections are ignored ) . The rest in FreeBSD is a nightmare : As it is installed : Install many packages by pkg_add . When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . As a result : Only an unusable installation is generated . For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during = install , there is NO any way to install them . It is necessary to be an "Expert" to be able to install them . This structure is driving the FreeBSD in http://distrowatch.com/ "Page Hit Ranking" around 500 at the ranking greater than 20 ( means a = small user base with respecto total Linux user base ) . With this installation structure ( not the installer program / script ) = , FreeBSD can not be widely adopted , because of like or dislike of it , = but not being able to use it . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:35 +0100 From: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> To: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> Cc: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@leidinger.net>, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <86hak86cz8.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> writes: > Install many packages by pkg_add . > When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : > Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . > To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to = talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. > For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during=20 > install , there is NO any way to install them . because of this: http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases) = to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship with a = full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. DES -- Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:40:55 -0700 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> Cc: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@leidinger.net>, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <CAOgwaMv3wjLQu383ok5zqGtk__n=3D5aeCXXMB_ajzYePu0jp6og@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> wrote: > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> writes: > > Install many packages by pkg_add . > > When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : > > Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . > > To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . > > That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a > functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. > The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets to > talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. > > > For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during > > install , there is NO any way to install them . > > because of this: > > http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html > > We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some cases) > to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship = with > a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no > Please , do not understand me that I am against the efforts of very valuable developers and contributors of the FreeBSD . All of my complaints are result of my gratitude against them and their products . My wish always is to see that FreeBSD is much more widely adopted , and used . To reach such a case needs to eliminate harsh points for the beginners . An "expert" can do anything he/she wants , but number of "expert" people is small with respect to number of new beginners . For that reason , please do not compare yours and others ( others are = new beginners ) . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 08:14:29 -0700 From: Chris Benesch <chris.benesch@gmail.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <51472F55.5030503@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed On 3/18/2013 7:40 AM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> = wrote: > >> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> writes: >>> Install many packages by pkg_add . >>> When a desktop ( KDE . FluxBox , Gnome ) is started : >>> Mouse , key board is NOT working , they are solid rock . >>> To mount removable media : I could not find a way to it . >> That is not my experience. Simply installing x11/gnome2 gives me a >> functional desktop, and AFAIR Gnome automounts CDs and memory sticks. >> The only trouble I've had was hald and moused arguing over who gets = to >> talk to the mouse, which I fixed by disabling moused in rc.conf. >> >>> For example : Version 9.1 Release DVD has some packages , but during >>> install , there is NO any way to install them . >> because of this: >> >> http://www.freebsd.org/news/2012-compromise.html >> >> We have a number of people working very hard (too hard, in some = cases) >> to ensure that this does not happen again and that 8.4 and 9.2 ship = with >> a full set of packages. It wouldn't hurt to show some gratitude. >> >> DES >> -- >> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no >> > > Please , do not understand me that I am against the efforts of very > valuable developers and contributors of the FreeBSD . > > All of my complaints are result of my gratitude against them and their > products . > > > My wish always is to see that FreeBSD is much more widely adopted , = and > used . To reach such a case needs to eliminate harsh points for the > beginners . An "expert" can do anything he/she wants , but number of > "expert" people is small with respect to number of new beginners . > > > For that reason , please do not compare yours and others ( others are = new > beginners ) . > > Thank you very much . > > > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" I would think that distributions like PC-BSD would address issues like a = recommended package group, which are aimed at consumer desktop users. I = have been out of the Linux world for a while, relying on BSD for my *nix = needs, but from what I remember, and comparing to Free or Open BSD, the=20 difference is night and day. Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc = on BSD, you need the gcc port and a few support packages, such as=20 readline, gettext, intl, etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc,=20 gcc-devel, gcc-headers, kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more=20 complex. The difference comes from a basic philosophical difference. BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, the license is quick and easy,=20 and all of the software comes with all sources and headers included. =20 Even things that are notoriously closed source like Java. Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. Maybe it is = to appeal to a wider market of suppliers and users so that more software = can be ported, but we have seen that doesnt really work out that way. =20 The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually read = it instead of just saying yes. The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings=20 appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it=20 was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors vs. = a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. That and the=20 packaging. Linux has an "I'll do it all for you, you dont have to make=20 any decisions" approach to its installer vs. BSDs "Heres what you should = do, but go ahead and change it if you want" approach. The various offshoots of BSD aimed at desktop users have a good idea,=20 but personally I think they are overreaching. Myself if I were to=20 engage in one of those projects, I would number the versions along with=20 the version of FreeBSD I was supporting (9.1, etc...), nobody wants v=20 1.1 anymore, rewrite the installer to run in an SVGA driven X=20 environment (everyone supports VBE now, we dont have to be backwards=20 compatible to 1991, and if for some reason it doesnt work, there is=20 always good ol text mode). Make the bootloader play nice with Windoze,=20 and install a set of recommended packages that has for example a KDE or=20 Gnome setup with email, office/productivity tools, a base set of=20 multimedia player (and yes, lets get over the butthurt over MP3 support, = it should do that out of the box) and codecs, and some cool looking=20 themes and I think we could get good consumer market penetration. Couple that with a good marketing campaign, some real life testimonials, = and maybe a deal with an OEM like Tigerdirect or Frys to have PCs=20 shipped with it preinstalled, and you would see it walk over Linux in a=20 heartbeat. Lets face it, we have the better product, no? Heck I'll put = myself out as the l33t rebel so the maketing can appeal to the script=20 kiddies too, LULZ. Anyway, just my $.02 ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:55:15 +0100 From: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> To: Chris Benesch <chris.benesch@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <864ng866u4.fsf@ds4.des.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 Chris Benesch <chris.benesch@gmail.com> writes: > Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc > port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl, > etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers, > kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference > comes from a basic philosophical difference. Yes and no. FreeBSD ships headers, static libraries, debugging symbols etc. as part of base, and as part of each package. Most Linux distributions ship these separately and don't install them by default. However, it's not as complicated as you make it out to be: just run 'apt-get install build-essentials' (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) or 'yum groupinstall "Development Tools"' (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS). > BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, [...] > Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. Neither statement is correct, and the issue is far too complex to be summarized in two sentences, or even two paragraphs. > The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually > read it instead of just saying yes. It's as long as it needs to be to express what its authors wish it to express. If you're in a hurry or have a short attention span, just skip the preamble and stop when you get to the disclaimer of warranty. > The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious beginnings > appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality it > was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors > vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. Neither characterization is correct. (BTW, I'm "a guy from Scandinavia", and so is one of the founders of the FreeBSD project) DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:16 -0700 From: Chris Benesch <chris.benesch@gmail.com> To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <514768F0.2050008@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed On 3/18/2013 8:55 AM, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Chris Benesch <chris.benesch@gmail.com> writes: >> Lets take gcc for instance. To install gcc on BSD, you need the gcc >> port and a few support packages, such as readline, gettext, intl, >> etc... but thats it. On Linux you need gcc, gcc-devel, gcc-headers, >> kernel-headers, gcc-libs, a whole lot more complex. The difference >> comes from a basic philosophical difference. > Yes and no. FreeBSD ships headers, static libraries, debugging = symbols > etc. as part of base, and as part of each package. Most Linux > distributions ship these separately and don't install them by default. > However, it's not as complicated as you make it out to be: just run > 'apt-get install build-essentials' (Debian, Ubuntu, Mint) or 'yum > groupinstall "Development Tools"' (RHEL, Fedora, CentOS). > >> BSD IMHO seeks to be truly open source, [...] >> Linux seeks to straddle the line of open and closed source. > Neither statement is correct, and the issue is far too complex to be > summarized in two sentences, or even two paragraphs. > >> The GPL is overly long and convoluted if anyone bothers to actually >> read it instead of just saying yes. > It's as long as it needs to be to express what its authors wish it to > express. If you're in a hurry or have a short attention span, just = skip > the preamble and stop when you get to the disclaimer of warranty. > >> The answer lies in the marketing. Linux and its rebellious = beginnings >> appeal to people better than BSD for some reason, when in actuality = it >> was a guy from Scandinavia experimenting with the new 386 processors >> vs. a group that was there when Unix was originally invented. > Neither characterization is correct. > > (BTW, I'm "a guy from Scandinavia", and so is one of the founders of = the > FreeBSD project) > > DES The last time I did any Linux sys admin stuff was back before yum and=20 apt-get, so it looks like things have improved. I didnt mean to sound=20 geographically prejudicial, just my impression since the 90s and early=20 2000s. Heck I'd love to go see the northern extremes of Europe=20 someday. Honestly every year I do an upgrade where I get invovled in=20 all of it for a few weeks, then go quiet while the box silently and=20 flawlessly runs next to me. We are on the same team, and I cant thank the whole team enough for=20 making and continuing to maintain the extraordinary software I myself=20 and tons of people have come to rely on daily. Politics really isnt my=20 thing, I write code for a living. Maybe I should just stay there. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 20:58:15 +0100 From: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@Leidinger.net> To: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des@des.no> Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <20130318205815.00001cb5@unknown> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des@des.no> wrote: > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> writes: > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. >=20 > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark as > the ports tree (~24k ports). Thanks, this is something which helps. Bye, Alexander. --=20 http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID =3D = B0063FE7 http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID =3D = 72077137 ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 14:42:29 -0700 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> To: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@leidinger.net> Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des@des.no>, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <CAOgwaMuGXfAVu2UW2pz_s9s7tDErAp9pgbOXiGp_a82A9tppLQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Alexander Leidinger < Alexander@leidinger.net> wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 > Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des@des.no> wrote: > > > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> writes: > > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark = as > > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > Thanks, this is something which helps. > > Bye, > Alexander. > > -- > > Some package lists : ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/mageia/distrib/2/x86_64/media/core/release/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/archlinux/core/os/x86_64/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/archlinux/extra/os/x86_64/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/centos/6.4/os/x86_64/Packages/ ftp://mirrors.kernel.org/opensuse/distribution/12.3/repo/oss/suse/x86_64/= http://packages.debian.org/stable/ https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/stats/?_csrf_token=3D4dbd43afddf475= f0efe aee2e2223fa77b781c0bb ftp://ftp.scientificlinux.org/linux/scientific/6.3/x86_64/os/Packages/ It seems that Debian-based distributions do not have an "All" list , but only categorized lists . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:26:38 -0700 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> To: Alexander Leidinger <Alexander@leidinger.net> Cc: Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des@des.no>, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Did someone compare the number of ports with packages in Linux distros? Message-ID: <CAOgwaMtU+L_QDTSugkF=3D-HJODSaJqhyaqXeE8DFH1p4SLRyAeg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Alexander Leidinger < Alexander@leidinger.net> wrote: > On Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:33:18 +0100 > Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav <des@des.no> wrote: > > > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> writes: > > > You can get a meaningful comparison by counting distfiles on our > > > side and SRPMs / DSCs on the Linux side. > > > > I asked a coworker who's a Debian developer; he says Debian has ~30k > > packages from ~20k distinct sources, which is in the same ballpark = as > > the ports tree (~24k ports). > > Thanks, this is something which helps. > > Bye, > Alexander. > > -- > > Some Linux Distribution DVD ( x86_64 ) Package counts : Fedora 18 : 4165 OpenSuse 12.3 : 4206 Mageia 2 : 4386 CentOS 6.4 DVD1 : 3956 Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ------------------------------ Greetings Mehmet Erol Sanliturk If you want a FreeBSD PC then go for the PCBSD install of FreeBSD is = primary made of the GUI you seems to want to see when installing a system. FreeBSD is the true sence of a server does not really need to waste resources and load kde anyway! It is hard of the hard core FreeBSD (Server) users to have a gui as a standard option, maybe we should be more GUI sysadmins I for a fact never use a GUI interface for my Server I install, in the = pasti f I wanted a system with the power of FreeBSD and a GUI I install PCBSD. I hope that you find FreeBSD as a good companion as I have over the = years. =20 (I just hate it when my clients ask me to migrate to Windows and shut = down a server with mega uptime without problems But I am able to bill lots more = on a server that always need to be rebooted and petting it for hours and = hours to make it work, But I just love vacations and free time more, that = FreeBSD allows me) Salvatore Albanese _______________________________________________ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to = "freebsd-advocacy-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" End of freebsd-advocacy Digest, Vol 400, Issue 2 ************************************************
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