Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 00:29:48 +0200 From: Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> To: Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> Cc: Miguel C <miguelmclara@gmail.com>, Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.com>, Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com>, "Steve O'Hara-Smith" <steve@sohara.org>, Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net>, freebsd-questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <CA%2B1FSij=Yy%2B75XWxr8O45vUZRY=uP8bKXzX=2Nc5JbuAPPBWsA@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20230413233050.2f0046c3.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <CA%2B1FSij9j922Nvv1Vhn43HznwpyGT99UZsU674G9hHWzR=UhvQ@mail.gmail.com> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <CA%2B1FSihVPCQ6tp8u=aqnLyyOPpCMrnhYGcC8bCUgRbFHTdY5sA@mail.gmail.com> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <CAHieY7RFe0P85twcs1NiiAvTTr4oGPJEtXEkufsXswQt3ECGvg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSiiCG-iugAbSoNC2r5WXCJvgi6pj3jG74jCwukhNtb_XGA@mail.gmail.com> <CADGo8CXsCYCOi%2Bwk2ED7zpJdFQDhynzD0u1qFDUFS3RveS8wOg@mail.gmail.com> <20230413233050.2f0046c3.freebsd@edvax.de>
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--0000000000005839c605f93f45b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone here got scared that this discussion already became trollish. So,I don't know if I'm allowed to reply further. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 11:30=E2=80=AFPM Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrot= e: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:51 +0100, Miguel C wrote: > > I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's > > maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? > > The core "problem" - in fact, it's not actually a problem, > it's just the consequences of a design decision - is that > Docker hooks deeply into Linux kernel functioalities which > the FreeBSD kernel simply does not have. Docker therefore > is Linux-centric and Linux-specific, because the focus of > development is pointed at Linux. Cross-OS interoperability > is not a primary goal here. > > You could ask: Why does Linux Firefox not run on macOS? > Why does the Mac App Store not run on "Windows"? It is > not because someone is lazy or stupid, it's just because > it is not designed to do that. > > > > > Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? > > The word "just" is the key here: It is not a _simple_ > thing. "Could we just run FreeBSD binaries on Android?" ;-) > > > > > I'm sure it would serve the "just > > want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issue= s > > with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely tak= es > > some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen > mentions > > of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. > > It looks like it is technically possible, after (!) > investing time and work into getting it done. It is > not a trivial effort. > > > > > MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is > > supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the d= ay > > and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. > > You could likewise use a VM to run an instance of > Linux and then run Docker inside that VM... > > > > > I've never tried this my self [...] > > Sorry, not a good prefix for a broad statement. :-) > > > > > [...] but I don't think it should be that super > > complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, t= he > > argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker o= n > my > > macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will > still > > use Linux, K8s etc. > > It's probably _quite_ complicated, or else someone > would already have done it as there are lots of users > and administrators who would probably love to run > Docker natively on FreeBSD. I'm not involved in the > Docker development, so I can only guess (or conclude > from Linux development): It is a moving target and, > as mentioned above, combined with Linux-centricity. > > "I've never built a house, but how hard can it be? > There are lots of houses over there!" Sorry... ;-) > > > > > Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to > easy > > the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be goo= d > > for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. > > The FreeBSD foundation is responsible primarily for > the FreeBSD operating system. Docker is a 3rd party > software (like the stuff in the ports collection), > so it's a bit out of scope of the FreeBSD foundation. > But writing a polite message to them and asking is > never a bad idea. > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > --=20 Mario. --0000000000005839c605f93f45b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Someone here got scared that this discussion already becam= e trollish. So,I don't know if I'm allowed to reply further.<br></d= iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On = Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 11:30=E2=80=AFPM Polytropon <<a href=3D"mailto:free= bsd@edvax.de" target=3D"_blank">freebsd@edvax.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><b= lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le= ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:5= 1 +0100, Miguel C wrote:<br> > I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause Free= BSD's<br> > maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBS= D?<br> <br> The core "problem" - in fact, it's not actually a problem,<br= > it's just the consequences of a design decision - is that<br> Docker hooks deeply into Linux kernel functioalities which<br> the FreeBSD kernel simply does not have. Docker therefore<br> is Linux-centric and Linux-specific, because the focus of<br> development is pointed at Linux. Cross-OS interoperability<br> is not a primary goal here.<br> <br> You could ask: Why does Linux Firefox not run on macOS?<br> Why does the Mac App Store not run on "Windows"? It is<br> not because someone is lazy or stupid, it's just because<br> it is not designed to do that.<br> <br> <br> <br> > Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve?<br> <br> The word "just" is the key here: It is not a _simple_<br> thing. "Could we just run FreeBSD binaries on Android?" ;-)<br> <br> <br> <br> > I'm sure it would serve the "just<br> > want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some= issues<br> > with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely ta= kes<br> > some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen= mentions<br> > of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier.<br> <br> It looks like it is technically possible, after (!)<br> investing time and work into getting it done. It is<br> not a trivial effort.<br> <br> <br> <br> > MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP= " is<br> > supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the = day<br> > and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.<br> <br> You could likewise use a VM to run an instance of<br> Linux and then run Docker inside that VM...<br> <br> <br> <br> > I've never tried this my self [...]<br> <br> Sorry, not a good prefix for a broad statement. :-)<br> <br> <br> <br> > [...] but I don't think it should be that super<br> > complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, = the<br> > argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I u= se docker on my<br> > macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I w= ill still<br> > use Linux, K8s etc.<br> <br> It's probably _quite_ complicated, or else someone<br> would already have done it as there are lots of users<br> and administrators who would probably love to run<br> Docker natively on FreeBSD. I'm not involved in the<br> Docker development, so I can only guess (or conclude<br> from Linux development): It is a moving target and,<br> as mentioned above, combined with Linux-centricity.<br> <br> "I've never built a house, but how hard can it be?<br> There are lots of houses over there!" Sorry... ;-)<br> <br> <br> <br> > Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to= easy<br> > the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be go= od<br> > for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities.<br> <br> The FreeBSD foundation is responsible primarily for<br> the FreeBSD operating system. Docker is a 3rd party<br> software (like the stuff in the ports collection),<br> so it's a bit out of scope of the FreeBSD foundation.<br> But writing a polite message to them and asking is<br> never a bad idea.<br> <br> <br> <br> -- <br> Polytropon<br> Magdeburg, Germany<br> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0<br> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...<br> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br><span>-- </span><br><div dir=3D"lt= r">Mario.<br></div> --0000000000005839c605f93f45b6--
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