Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:32:17 -0700 From: Studded <Studded@gorean.org> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: upgrading notes Message-ID: <362E36C1.148E0261@gorean.org> References: <19981019180600.39400@welearn.com.au> <362B79C3.EAA3607E@gorean.org> <362BBD20.4B26@echidna.com> <19981020174250.34448@welearn.com.au> <362CFFEA.328A17E9@gorean.org> <19981021211951.08236@welearn.com.au>
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Once again, I won't move a conversation that started in -newbies to
-questions. I will however snip some of the already rehashed ground.
Sue Blake wrote:
> > > That's part of the confusion I suggested was avoidable by using
> > > -questions if doing non-standard things. And it's another damn good
> > > reason for having discussions with the experts held in the place where
> > > experts hang out to help, freebsd-questions. There they present
> > > opinions which are open to review by their peers. Any difference of
> > > opinion is clarified quickly in that exposed forum, at any level. In
> > > -newbies we have no frame of reference and every talker is a god.
> >
> > As I recall, this was one of my objections to the creation of the
> > -newbies list. I'm glad that you're seeing things my way finally. :)
>
> You are the only person who has (and repeatedly) caused it to
> become a problem. The only one. Makes ya kinda wonder why :)
Actually several experienced users have posted to the newbies list. My
posts are the only ones you object to. And no, I don't wonder why.
> Experts' radical opinions bestowed upon -newbies, where they will not
> be challenged by equal peers, are one of the things that can isolate
> new users from differences of opinion.
Once again, my opinion did not go unchallenged. Greg disagreed with me
quite eloquently. Not to mention that my opinion about avoiding releases
is not particularly radical.
> When they are wrong,
> misunderstood, or contentious, we have a problem. This is not the first
> time, is it, Doug. That's why they need to be seen here, in -questions.
> Final agreement should be recorded in the handbook
Final agreement? On something relating to FreeBSD? It's not going to
happen. At best you get a loose definition of the current best practice.
The rock solid certainty that you seem to be searching for simply
doesn't exist. In particular there is no one best answer about which
version to install. It's highly dependent on what you're going to do
with it.
> if the advice
> already there is in error, but at minimum the true picture should be
> archived in -questions.
>
> I for one would like to see more opinions on the release issue, and not
> from newbies. Until the opinions can stand up to the full range of
> experience, they are just a confusing pompous noise.
So you're willing to offer what you've heard about upgrading without
actually knowing anything about it (by your own admission), and in spite
of the fact that you *asked* for feedback you don't want any feedback
from people who actually know something about the topic? Or is it that
you don't want any feedback ON the -newbies list so that yours can be
the only confusing pompous voice?
> The pros and cons
> need to be in the -questions archives which is where people will
> search.
By default the search page includes -questions and -newbies.
> Let's be constructive, not disruptive.
I agree with you in principle, however I think we disagree on the
definitions of those two terms.
> > As has been mentioned here previously this list contains all levels
> > of "new users," and trying to cram them all into your (sue's) view of
> > the "one true way" does all of them a disservice.
>
> There is no "one true way" other than the list charter and the view of
> the majority of the community that cooperation is the way to succeed.
> It has nothing to do with any individuals.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
> If you hate the list so much,
Au contraire. I never said I hate the new users' list. In fact I've
said repeatedly that my original opinion has changed and that I think
the list has value. In point of fact, it's BECAUSE I think the list has
value that I respond to posts here.
> I can't imagine why it's more important to you than helping
> newbies in -questions. This is where you're needed, in -questions.
> It might be a little harder, but it's much appreciated. The points you
> raised about -stable will be valuable to many who read -questions,
> no need to restrict them to a subset of users.
I do help users in -questions. I was helping users in -questions before
there was a -newbies list, and I continue to do so. And my opinion about
avoiding releases is well known to anyone who reads any of the lists.
:) However if you're trying to say, "Doug, stop responding to posts in
-newbies" my response is simply that I will answer any post I see fit to
answer, period.
> Sorry about the thick skin.
Your dermatalogical problems are not my concern. :)
Doug
--
*** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network ***
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