Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 11:02:25 +1000 From: jonathan michaels <jon@caamora.com.au> To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org> Subject: Re: new FreeBSD-webpage Message-ID: <20051008110225.52611@caamora.com.au> In-Reply-To: <nospam-1128661925.48923@iliad.gbch.net>; from Greg Black on Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 03:12:04PM %2B1000 References: <b41c75520510060225h2eeecdd8w@mail.gmail.com> <di2s9q$4ss$1@sea.gmane.org> <43455D3E.5040007@mbnet.fi> <20051006204336.GA36557@neptune.atopia.net> <20051006213326.GA33286@xor.obsecurity.org> <20051006213740.GA37835@neptune.atopia.net> <20051006214904.GB33546@xor.obsecurity.org> <nospam-1128661925.48923@iliad.gbch.net>
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greetings all,
my bagage is this .. i am a disabled man who lives with severe
chronicly debiliting pain from significantly danaged neurology and
associated arthritis. there are several other conributing issues but i
don't need to belabour the point more than this.
i use freebsd on hardware that i used to ply my trade (systems analyst
consultant for several organisations involved in the research and
developemt of computer based tools for resource management on broad
acre farm systems and othe niche water resourec management systems and
teh odd scart management systems.
these days i live a leisurely life on a retirement plan otherwise know
as the oinvalide pension .. its meager but its doable enough to keep
body and soul together for the time being.. sortofa grin.
i use lynx browser on an old intel computer, and soon maybe digital
unix on a dec alphastation 255 (with a 233 mhx cpu a 1gb scsi hhd and
128 mb dram and a 10 mhz dec ethernet card) this assumes that i cannot
get freebsd or netbsd installed on this nice little workstation.
i've just tried to spend some time on teh new webpage ...
On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 03:12:04PM +1000, Greg Black wrote:
> This belongs on freebsd-www; reply-to set accordingly.
>
> On 2005-10-06, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 05:37:40PM -0400, Dan Ponte wrote:
> >> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 05:33:26PM -0400, Kris Kennaway <kris@obsecurity.org> was witnessed plotting the following conspiracy:
> >>> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 04:43:36PM -0400, Dan Ponte wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I second that all the way. Personally, I feel that the FreeBSD project
> >>>> is doing too much in the way of appearing "trendy" to attract new users,
> >>>> and it's at the expense of its existing userbase. Not to mention that
> >>>> the old site rendered perfectly in elinks, while the new one is a mess
> >>>> (scrolling all over the place).
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for sharing your opinion, but you forgot to explain how a new
> >>> website will make existing FreeBSD users stop using the operating
> >>> system.
>
> What an absurd way to read what he wrote. Clearly he meant that
> the reduction in usability of the new site is at the expense of
> the existing userbase which has come to expect certain things
> from the site. He said nothing about people leaving and you're
> just trolling with the above statement.
>
> >> I should have worded that differently. By "expense" I didn't mean that
> >> the existing userbase would shrink, but, rather, it would be at a
> >> disadvantage to it. Though, I don't think that anyone would have truly
> >> seen it as the former.
>
> Nobody who wanted to play fair would have seen it like that.
>
> > If you think the new design truly puts you at some kind of
> > disadvantage, you should formulate constructive ideas for how to fix
> > that.
>
> The problems with the new design have been widely canvassed on
> the freebsd-www list, where the discussion belongs.
>
> Unfortunately, that list is inhabited by a bunch of apologists
> for the new design who seem to be mainly interested in shouting
> down the people who have raised legitimate concerns; or if that
> fails, in belittling them.
>
> To list the most critical issues:
>
> * Many important navigation links (e.g., the Handbook, the
> Ports) disappeared from the front page.
>
> * The user interface design is dreadful (e.g., fixed sizes for
> things that cause all kinds of breakage when windows are
> resized or font sizes changed to suit the reader).
>
> * Really boring junk has replaced real content on the front
> page (e.g., lengthy list of new committers under the heading
> of "news").
>
> Anyway, rather than protesting that the new thing is wonderful
> and continually demanding "constructive" criticism from people
> who are offering just that, why not listen to the suggestions
> and see how to improve things?
if i understand this i would like to say yes, please it is time that
freebsd et al lead teh way to show how easy it is to incorporate
daiabled users accability into a large scale generally available
webpage accessed by a wide verity of teh target population.
>
> For years, I've been sending people to the FreeBSD site to get
> information and help -- universally, I've had excellent feedback
> from all kinds of users about the value and ease of use of the
> site. The claims that the old site was too hard to use that
> have been advanced as the main reason for the update just don't
> hold water, as far as I'm concerned.
i too have been sending people to teh freebsd web page but unlike
perhaps "gregs people" jonathans crowd have been much like him ..
argumentative, demanding obnoxious opininated and somewhat loudmounted
in thier own ways .. thats teh two leged standing variety, the two
wheeled sitting variety have been just as cantankerious and impossible
to deal with, we as disabled people can be from time to time.
especially when we find webpages that are claimed to be easy to read
and have won the odd award .. we wonder what kinds of awards or blind
and or illiterates were on teh committy.
i've offten made (tried to) point that if you make a page accessible to
a disabled peron that all teh (so called) not so disabled people will
find the pages far easier to use and a sight more easier on teh eye.
these days the (so called) exerts at w3.org now seem to agree with this
point of view.
> Anyway, I see that the people in charge will do whatever they
> want and it will be up to the rest of us to make the best of it.
as they have always done, and so will continue, unless adequately
persuasive arguments can be proffered by equally persuasive people,
even if tehy are not towing teh "company line"
i've always laboured in teh view that the internet is supposed to be an
inclusive medium .. not teh now rapidly becoming devisively exclusive
LogIn/JoinHere/SignUpNow/GetYourAutherisedId etc etc etc kind of space
exclusionary sphere/space/world/system and so on on on.
> At least this lack of responsiveness means that I can feel OK
> about unsubscribing from the noise on freebsd-www, since being
> there will clearly accomplish nothing.
sadly this is teh tred that i see developing i all of the (megre
subset) od freebsd fora i still read for information, that at times is
in short supply, but the volume of mail fails not to surge, not
nessacerily because of teh attendant spam/vira/propositions/obligatory
'sales' promotion materials.
in conclusion, as hard as life used to be i'm starting to long for that
world that the freebsd malilinglists used to be 5 years ago, hell even
as far as ten years ago .. people answered questions and offered
pertinent advice .. sometimes it was off key but freebsd was "simple"
enough to even a green user like me could fix things for themselves.
now, even with my (almost complete, save teh last semister when i walked
out, for reasons of my own stupid pride) bSci (computing) and a strand
of mathamatics applied .. has diffuculty reading let alone being able
to understand enought to make sence off .. being abl to fix, whose
kiding who unless one is completely upto date andor involved in teh
development cycle it is difficult enough to coe to terms with. i used
to program with BASIC and some basic fortran to build modles of the
water strogage systems we used to build/design ..... i'm getting
involed, sorry this is nto the time or place i do not have teh
intelectual resources or emotional capacities any more to get this
involved.
all that i have ever asked of the people who have teh strings that make
freebsd usable by all people and the secondary string set that controls
teh freebsd webspace is that you keep in your conciderations those of
teh freebsd communbity who like me have neither the skills of language
or communications to be able to adequalty/clearley articulate owr needs
for an interface/web page tools that are in truth not that diferent to
all teh rest of teh people who use these self same
kits/objects/systems/pages we are not asking for much just for a chance
to be included and or heard with out being riduclude insulted aand or
humilliated .. as was teh want of a prsticular group of people who
wonce wandered the pages of teh bsd malinlistsg some time ago. while
thay are gone some of teh attitude remains and from time to time
prevails.
note i'm not talking about the idiotic 'politically correct' talk or
attitude set, that has done far more damage to us the disabled as a
whole and has raised far more barriers than all teh dark glasses,
wheelchairs, canes {white and otherwise) and all teh mangled bodes like
mine, some worse, some not so bad, evenly societally acceptable as
normal ...
as my grandmother used to say, give a disabled perons a hand, who knows
you may just be helping your self. i didn;t understand that in my teens
i thought it was stupid .. now 40 years latter i regret not having my
grandmothers wisdom, or having her around anymore to ask her for the
help only someone of her age and experience can give. we all have
skills and abilites .. even the stupid one like me.
take care all
kind regards
jonathan
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