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Date:      Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:42:43 +1000
From:      Andrew Reilly <areilly@bigpond.net.au>
To:        Luigi Rizzo <rizzo@iet.unipi.it>
Cc:        Doug Barton <dougb@freebsd.org>, Ivan Voras <ivoras@freebsd.org>, freebsd-current@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Interpreted language(s) in the base
Message-ID:  <81DF8D90-59E4-41F5-BAB8-556403D2E100@bigpond.net.au>
In-Reply-To: <20100818142852.GA80221@onelab2.iet.unipi.it>
References:  <4C6505A4.9060203@FreeBSD.org> <4C650B75.3020800@FreeBSD.org> <4C651192.9020403@FreeBSD.org> <i477eo$i4d$1@dough.gmane.org> <4C673898.2080609@FreeBSD.org> <AANLkTim_prShRiHkLnFbhek9%2Beaa-KaJ5oZtNo%2BLd0K1@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1008152240370.66595@qbhto.arg> <20100818134341.GA88861@johnny.reilly.home> <20100818142852.GA80221@onelab2.iet.unipi.it>

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Hi Luigi,

On 19/08/2010, at 00:28 , Luigi Rizzo wrote:

> slightly off topic but I disagree  on the latter part.

I didn't expect everyone to agree.  Not sure that I do, necessarily, =
either.  (A neat, small language like TCL or Lua is probably better for =
most of the uses we're discussing here.)  Just making a low-impact =
suggestion to the problem of making use of a higher-level language than =
C while not dragging large lumps of code into core, or accumulating =
maintenance issues.

> The whole point of having source code is to be able to make
> modifications, small or large, private or ones to be contributed
> back. As a teacher, i am very concerned about the ease-of-use for
> non-developer types: it is important to make it easy for people to
> experiments, as this is one of the ways people learn things.

I'm not making any suggestion about preventing or discouraging =
tinkering.  After all, we used to carry f2c around in the base, in order =
to support Fortran code.  There's no particular reason *not* to provide =
the front-end for (whatever language), but so long as it's readily =
available in ports, and build-able form a base config, I don't see that =
being in base is essential.

> Having sources in some fantastic new language 'fuffa' and no 'fuffa2c'
> tool is almost as bad as having no source.

This is an opinion I certainly don't share.  There are many languages =
that I don't like but that doesn't make them useful, or even =
best-for-purpose in their niche.  (a) I'm not suggesting that we don't =
provide source, and (b) learning a new language is an excellent =
excellent exercise for students, and one that they're going to have to =
go through often, for the rest of their careers.

> (in fact, it is like the
> joke of supplying source for the GPL'd software in your brand new
> LCD tv or appliance. I'd like to know who will ever be able to build
> an updated image and upload it to the appliance)

It's nothing of the sort, of course.  In the scenario I suggested, the =
task of updating the putative program would involve the editors =
available in base, to edit the source shipped with the system.  Only the =
compilation of the edited source might or might not be gated by =
installing the port for the putative compiler.  Several of the examples =
I gave originally come with an interpreter and debugging environment, so =
even that potential argument need not be a blocker.  Not a high bar to =
entry, I suggest.

Cheers,

--=20
Andrew




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