Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:27:13 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> To: Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> Cc: Olivier Certner <olce@freebsd.org>, Current FreeBSD <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Message-ID: <20240115182713.5abeab262fc4750fb3c45b53@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <259993C7-D14C-48CC-9593-25FCC1741115@yahoo.com> References: <F5D2BD92-5AC3-4B1E-8B47-A1F13D9FC677.ref@yahoo.com> <F5D2BD92-5AC3-4B1E-8B47-A1F13D9FC677@yahoo.com> <3183964.fD0qBhBWp0@ravel> <6A477CBE-692E-49F9-B21E-2C0D29F09766@yahoo.com> <20240115072732.85c2213714a658d3b98ab830@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <259993C7-D14C-48CC-9593-25FCC1741115@yahoo.com>
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On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 16:13:06 -0800 Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jan 14, 2024, at 14:27, Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> wrote: > > > On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:53:34 -0800 > > Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > >> On Jan 14, 2024, at 08:39, Olivier Certner <olce@freebsd.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi Mark, > >>> > >>>> I never use atime, always noatime, for UFS. That said, I'd never propose > >>>> changing the long standing defaults for commands and calls. > >>> > >>> With this mail, you're giving more detailed objections on the social/political aspects of the proposed changed, or as we usually say more simply, POLA. > >>> > >>> All your points are already largely weakened by the fact that, to wrap-up in a single sentence at the risk of being slightly caricatural (but then see my other mails), nobody really seems to care seriously about access times. > >> > >> I seriously care about having a lack of access times. Yet, I've no > >> objection to needing to be explicit about it in commands and > >> subroutine interfaces, given the long standing interfaces (defaults). > >> It would be different if I could not achieve the lack of access > >> times. That defaults do not block having the desired settings makes > >> the change optional, not technically required. The defaults are, > >> thus, primarily social/political aspects of interfaces, not > >> technical requirements to make things work. > >> > >> Given that, I explicitly claim that avoiding POLA at this late stage > >> is my preference for the priority of competing considerations. I > >> make no claim of knowing the majority view of the tradeoffs. I would > >> claim that, if the majority is not by just some marginal amount, > >> contradicting that majority view for this would not be appropriate. > >> (Again: the social/political aspects.) > >> > >> And, hopefully, this is my last contribution to this particular > >> bike shed. > >> > >> === > >> Mark Millard > >> marklmi at yahoo.com > > > > I would prefer violating POLA here, with, for example, forcing admins > > to choose explicitly with installer menu > > I've not reported any objection to bsdinstall having explicit > choices required in its menus. Nor to changing how, say, > official snapshots are generated (so long as well notified > and documented). If my wording was unclear on that, I'm sorry. > > My focus was on things like mount command notation and > /etc/fstab notation (that tracks mount defaults) or subroutine > interface equivalents of such things and changing their > behavior without requiring changing the notation already in > place in various files. > > (I've tried to word the above without making new points, > avoiding contributing more to the bike shed material.) > > > Choose whether you need to retain last file access time or not: > > 1: Don't keep (current default) > > 2: Keep last one (default before 15.0) > > > > by hand, or via installer configuration or additional scripts. > > Of course, existing installations should not be affected. > > > > > === > Mark Millard > marklmi at yahoo.com So you mean changing behaviour of mount[_*] to default to noatime, in conjunction with configuration in /etc/fstab to default to noatime, right? So if changes are done as such, if anyone want atime active, add "-o atime" in mount[_*] command and/or "[,]atime" in /etc/fstab? -- Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
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