Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2020 08:24:43 -0400 From: Jerry <jerry@seibercom.net> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd vs. netbsd Message-ID: <20200611082443.0000187a@seibercom.net> In-Reply-To: <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de> References: <171506d5-19aa-359e-c21d-f07257c52ebd@freenetMail.de> <62d10000-e068-922e-23bd-f7a61e7a4e89@anatoli.ws> <ACE27C81-9437-41D6-BBD4-FA7A7B791428@kicp.uchicago.edu> <6a4f6a15-ec43-03f6-1a41-a109e445f026@anatoli.ws> <f667e8f9-b279-a3ce-3fc4-224ba17f4bbb@kicp.uchicago.edu> <00225a04-237d-9051-9aea-12c192106a20@anatoli.ws> <373EDB20-C750-42E2-A41B-EA61F6E49807@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200609120136.00005b3c@seibercom.net> <2393a1e0-b073-950a-78be-9f57d8e9934b@anatoli.ws> <e1f6623a-3b3c-a43e-446a-d41f20f69418@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20200610063555.00003707@seibercom.net> <82F57D0D-E0EC-49F7-824E-20A296C9F549@kicp.uchicago.edu> <250b853a-b436-0e99-b05c-9abd6b6019ef@panix.com> <20200611070630.2cb42786.freebsd@edvax.de> <EA869B95-9D98-4ECC-9371-C57A0035BC32@kreme.com> <20200611075658.1dd841a9.freebsd@edvax.de>
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On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 07:56:58 +0200, Polytropon commented:
>On Wed, 10 Jun 2020 23:13:10 -0600, @lbutlr wrote:
>> On 10 Jun 2020, at 23:06, Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrote: =20
>> > However, I assume that the use of "reply to all" is so convenient
>> > it is often preferred to "reply to mailing list", that's why
>> > sometimes replies are send "twice"=E2=80=A6 =20
>
>Attention! Here we have a severe case of "MUA ate my homework"!
>
>Your MUA did modify (!) my original message, so the quote is no
>longer correct (as it imples something that I didn't write).
>
>Aspect 1 is no big problem: It removed my newlines and put
>everything into one long line. This is no big deal with
>regular text ("paragraph text"), but would be with code,
>or something laid out to be a table or a diagram in text.
I think that could also be attributed to the fact that many users
configure their MUSs to use a specific font and/or font size that
affects the final display of the received email. I prefer a larger font
myself since my eye sight isn't what it was 20 years ago.
>Aspect 2, and that _is_ a problem: I wrote "...", which is
>three periods, and your MUA turned it into "=E2=80=A6", which is
>an UTF-8 ellipsis.
If UTF was used to begin with, that problem would evaporate.
>Aspect 2a, a sign of inconsistency, is that your MUA did
>not change my " double quotation marks (inch symbols) into
>correct typographical quotation marks. And how could it?
>Which rules would apply? I'm in Germany, so our quotation
>marks are "two down" and "two up", while in English, you
>usually how "two in" and "two out", something like this,
>incorrectly simplified:
>
> ,,The german style.''
>
> ``The english style.''
I believe the 'American' style would be:
U+201C and U-201D : =E2=80=9CAmerican style=E2=80=9D
In any case, I have not seen your 'magical character transpositions" in
my everyday use. Perhaps it is a systemic problem with your MUA.
>And there are of course differences in AE and BE. You can
>also see that I used tabs and empty lines for format my
>reply. If a MUA eats those, big problem.
>
>A typographically skilled person will even say that using
>something like =E2=80=9Cthat=E2=80=9C is wrong (uses same symbol for start
>and end of quoting).
>
>Similarly, MUAs could mess with the use of dashes ("-" or
>"=E2=80=93") or apostrophes ("'" or "=E2=80=99").
>
>All those considerations of course lead to breaking my
>carefully crafted message in plain ASCII (not even using
>ISO-8859-1) and lifting it into the UTF-8 multibyte universe
>with all its unsolved questions. ;-)
I use UTF-8 and find it solves problems, not creates them.
>> A smart MUA (is there one) you have a reply button that replied
>> sender if the messages was directly to you, replied to list if the
>> message was from a list, [...] =20
>
>As I mentioned, this will only work as long as the relevant
>headers are intact. If some MUA mangles them on the way (yes,
>I'm looking at you, MICROS~1 products!), this will no longer
>work. And as I've been saying this, MICROS~1 products are
>also known for changing message content (see above, aspect 2),
>and even mangling timestamps and timezones.
"Citation need for products post 2010" I am aware the the latest
versions of MS Outlook can be configured to reformat long lines, (the
removal of soft line breaks) and I actually fine that quite useful. I
use MS Outlook for my job and I find receiving and then trying to read
a long, detailed message in lines restricted to <=3D 80 characters a real
PIA when I have a 32" HD screen. Of course, YMMV.
>Oh, and MUAs don't have to be smart. It's much better if the
>people using them are smart. That's fully sufficient. :-)
And rarely seen in the wild. :)
>> [...] and made you hit a difficult chorded sequence of 47 keys in
>> precise order in less than 4 seconds to reply to all. =20
I put that into the same category as being expected to write a cryptic
30 line XML document to get a simple device to work.
>Which is inconvenient for users who _wish_ to be CCed in the
>typical "reply to all" manner.
Simple solution, join the mailing group. don't put the burden on the
email recipient. Take responsibility for your own actions. I know,
extremely rare these days.
>If I remember correctly, "reply to all" has never been a real
>problem on the FreeBSD mailing lists. Users can set up filtering
>rules to remove duplicate messages they might receive during a
>thread, or remind their counterparts to pay attention to use
>the "reply to mailing list" button.
Unfortunately, some sneaky 'repliers' include the intended recipient's
name in the "To:" field that complicates filtering messages.
>Sadly, Sylpheed has a prominent "reply to all" button, whereas
>"reply to mailing list" is a drop-down element next to the
>regular "reply" button. So you can guess which one gets used
>the most.
Claws-Mail allows a user to create custom folders with predefined
"To:". "CC:" and "Reply-To:" fields, among others. That totally
eliminates all the guess work, assuming the end-user bothered to
properly configure it.
--=20
Jerry
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