Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:25:08 -0700 From: Adam Weinberger <adam@vectors.cx> To: RichardH <rh@storm2k.com> Cc: Adam Weinberger <adam@vectors.cx>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed Message-ID: <20020814012508.GA2818@vectors.cx> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813190756.00aa2bc8@mail.richardh.wsonline.net> References: <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> <1631.192.168.1.10.1028329834.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020802194944.R95370-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <2534.192.168.1.10.1028334913.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020803004445.GA11182@branwen.sfo.geekhouse.net> <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020813190756.00aa2bc8@mail.richardh.wsonline.net>
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please do not cc me further on these messages. i feel comfortable in my
choice of O/S's, and don't desire to take place in a Unix pissing
contest.
-Adam
>> (08.13.2002 @ 1815 PST): RichardH said, in 7.5K: <<
> A) he is an idiot, FBSD was not designed to play quake or other crap on.
> B) If he needs to look at a f*ing word doc then either figure out star or
> open office or stick with Winshit
> C) show me that big ole RH box running as a web server that will run in
> excess of 5000 users and not crash, no prob with FBSD if you have a hard
> enough system and a good line.
> D) FBSD is designed as a server, not to play quake (again), or to look at
> hooters on the internet. It provides the hooters to Win users like him :)
>
> Please create and move this to freebsd-crap
>
>
>
> At 06:45 PM 8/13/2002, Adam Weinberger wrote:
> >this email belongs on freebsd-advocacy, not freebsd-questions nor
> >freebsd-chat.
> >
> >-Adam
> >
> >
> >>> (08.13.2002 @ 1735 PST): John-David Childs said, in 5.9K: <<
> >> I was going to let this thread by, but I just can't help it.
> >>
> >> I've been using FreeBSD for almost eight years. Unfortunately, I
> >> haven't been able to contribute as much as I'd like...I keep thinking
> >> that someday soon this will change, especially as I get more and more
> >> pissed at the holier than thou attitude of most people on the questions
> >> and stable lists (as referenced by the example below).
> >>
> >> If you like FreeBSD because it's a niche OS that no one else you work
> >> with knows, or it makes you kewl, or you think it gives you job
> >> security, or you like the little devil, press delete now. If you like
> >> FreeBSD because the VM rocks, the ports/packages system kicks a$$, or
> >> the (until recently) excruciatingly close scrutiny of MFC'd patches and
> >> security issues, and you believe you have a civic duty to "show them the
> >> way", then you're the audience I'm addressing.
> >>
> >> Plain and simple...the reason that Linux is used by 10 people (I'm
> >> probably massively underestimating) for every FreeBSD user (not counting
> >> Apple's marketing campaign) has NOTHING to do with whether it's a better
> >> OS. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that Linux is easier to
> >> install *and maintain* than FreeBSD...and most responses on the
> >> questions/stable lists seem to think that's ok ("let the idiots use
> >> Linux, the people who know use *BSD"). The problem with that thinking
> >> is that if "no one" (term used loosely) uses *BSD, then
> >>
> >> 1) getting a user-base large enough to effectively trouble-shoot/improve
> >> the OS becomes difficult. If an up-and-coming programmer/hacker is
> >> looking ahead to which OS is likely to land them a job...it's not going
> >> to be Free/Open/NetBSD.
> >>
> >> 2) getting driver support from commercial entities is next to
> >> impossible. If there aren't enough users to justify demand, it isn't
> >> going to be (cost) effective to write/support it.
> >>
> >> 3) getting support to install it as a server OS in medium-large
> >> (especially non-ISP) based businesses is next to impossible. While *BSD
> >> may have scored some initial successes, and Apple's support of BSD is
> >> admirable (but Apple has always been considered a "niche" player, and
> >> has fsckd-up more "initiatives" than I can count), most corporate
> >> managers whose jobs are on the line will ask themselves "If the shit
> >> hits the fan...".
> >>
> >> Less users = less admins = less programmers = less (corporate) support =
> >> less installations = less demand = less users =
> >>
> >> Granted...I don't want any of the *BSD's to become a RedHat behemoth,
> >> but I would like to not have cream pie thrown in my face every time I
> >> suggest a FreeBSD server. Five years ago, when *BSD and Linux were
> >> roughly neck and neck, it wasn't that hard to sell *BSD on technical
> >> merits. Now...it's all about who will support it when I get hit by a
> >> truck. How easy is it to set up? How easy is it (compared to Linux,
> >> Solaris, SGI, AIX, HPUX, etc) to install and administrate? Can it do
> >> clusters? Can it (natively) participate in a SAN? Is there a
> >> commercial package for VLAN support? How 'bout a commercial firewall?
> >> (Yes, I know and you know that ipf/ipfw/TIS does the job, but once we
> >> leave the company the next admin either has to spend days/weeks learning
> >> ipf/ipfw or s/he'll trash it immediately, bad-mouthing your stupid
> >> decisions all the way up the management chain).
> >>
> >> And it all starts with a (relatively) easy to use installer (sysinstall
> >> has gotten MUCH better, but still has too many ways to get lost in
> >> TABS/ESC/whoops and still looks infantile to other text-based
> >> installers), and at least the option for a workstation install (not a
> >> "instant workstation" port, which could take hours or days to
> >> compile/install, but an out-of-the-CD installation of Gnome or KDE with
> >> (or without, by choice) popular options (Evolution,
> >> OpenOfffice/Abiword+Gnumeric, etc)). And yes, a "dummy-fied" package
> >> upgrader like RedHat Updater or MandrakeUpdate (which friggin rocks when
> >> you have to update 50 machines across an enterprise).
> >>
> >> BSD'ers have always been a finicky lot, and have always preferred the
> >> RTFM/do-it-yourself approach. That's great...to a point...but
> >> eventually will relegate us to the land of A/UX, CP/M, and OS/2 (now
> >> there's a niche player). "You decide which is right, and which is an
> >> illusion."
> >>
> >> As requested, replies are redirected to freebsd-chat. I'm going to see
> >> about getting some "official" time to work on the installer, or the
> >> docs, or both. Replies directly to my address will be /dev/nulled
> >> because of the list spam collectors...those of you who "know" will be
> >> able to find me :-)
> >> --
> >>
> >> John-David Childs (JC612) Enterprise Internet Solutions
> >> Systems Administration 9616 Pecos St, Thornton
> >CO 80260
> >> & Network Engineering A fourth .sig line is a
> >waste!
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 18:44, Jim Mock wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 at 20:35:13 -0400, Mike wrote:
> >> > > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Mike wrote:
> >> > > >> Stick with videos.. Please. --
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Very funny. You mean "videoconferencing." And anyways, there is
> >an
> >> > > > expression: "The best of both worlds," you know?
> >> > >
> >> > > "videoconferencing."
> >> > > It's two words. Not one.
> >> > > I know all about you. Your all about SPAM. Besides, ask a stupid
> >> > > question
> >> >
> >> > That would be "You're". If you're going to flame him for
> >> > "videoconferencing" at least spell shit right otherwise you end up
> >> > looking even more stupid than you did for flaming him in the first
> >> > place.
> >> >
> >> > > get a stupid answer. you know? At least get a decent name for this
> >> > > FreeBSD os you want to chop into linux and make it so any sweaty wife
> >> > > beating greaseball can run a "Server"
> >> >
> >> > Enough already. Take this nonsense off list if you want to have a
> >> > bitchfest. There's enough mail that comes through here without having
> >> > to scrape through this garbage too.
> >> >
> >> > - jim
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > jim mock <mij@soupnazi.org> jim@FreeBSD.org
> >> >
> >> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> >> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
> >>
> >>> end of "Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed" from John-David Childs <<
> >
> >
> >--
> >"Oh good, my dog found the chainsaw."
> > -Lilo, "Lilo & Stitch"
> >Adam Weinberger
> >adam@vectors.cx
> >http://vectors.cx
> >
> >
> >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> >with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
>
>
>> end of "Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed" from RichardH <<
--
"Oh good, my dog found the chainsaw."
-Lilo, "Lilo & Stitch"
Adam Weinberger
adam@vectors.cx
http://vectors.cx
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