Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 18:48:03 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>, Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu>, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <20240806184803.bdbb01cc8f3d7f4e96fb42de@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrBQ=jUbi62v%2BATzY82Ua9VXoHsPJb--ZhB_52KXWn%2BLw@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAOtMX2hAUiWdGPtpaCJLPZB%2Bj2yzNw5DSjUmkwTi%2B%2BmyemehCA@mail.gmail.com> <vdmg5zocd6wqcwc2bvzvzqn4bii2pwdc2r4mgnisukfkboj6nf@f7lv5quu4fjx> <CAOtMX2iDK3uN_oQgzzZAdoOZCfNsnvpefeZvKoTCRmPBhZywzA@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfqB1%2B-8BkpKwKoCM%2BzM4mCOFy63yHr1Pco7MnT1DFkb4w@mail.gmail.com> <EF084C36-D2EA-4194-B30F-253B0E8D5B4D@iitbombay.org> <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <CANCZdfrh-74M0L-Z%2BOOnqSD6xO3PyaUXWc8LPWxtRbsWawu4qA@mail.gmail.com> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <CANCZdfptdHfoVc9WrayuMw4P4LEusKYrup-PvvVOp7bZ7ZSWCg@mail.gmail.com> <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <CANCZdfrBQ=jUbi62v%2BATzY82Ua9VXoHsPJb--ZhB_52KXWn%2BLw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:05:34 -0600 Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:49 PM Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> > wrote: > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 > > Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29 PM Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > > > > Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27 PM Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah < > > bakul@iitbombay.org> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > > > > .. > > > > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; > > picking > > > > up \ > > > > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 > > > > years \ > > > > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and > > put > > > > some > > > > > > \ > > > > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo > > lists to > > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, > > though... > > > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > > > deleted. :-) > > > > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > > > complains about loader.lua. > > > > > > > > > > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader is > > > its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when > > bearssl > > > and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. > > > > > > But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing > > > notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. > > > > Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default) > > something written in Forth for base, other than loader. > > > > 4th is too hard to program in and doesn't lend iitselfwell to string > processing. Agreed. It would be a good calculator for Reverse Polish notation, but for handling strings, it would not be (like programming on asm with limited functionalities). MY guess is that this is why lua loader is introduced. > > Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop > > shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest. > > > > Yea. Too many VMs want a CSM interface, so we'll be stuck with it > for some time to come :(. Ah, VMs. I recalled that I failed to boot FreeBSD with UEFI boot failed in early days UEFI boot was introcuded on VirtualBox-OSE. After that, I stopped trying UEFI boot on VirtualBox guests. Maybe early adopters on other VMs would bitten by something alike, and want their vendors to keep on supporting BIOS boot. It could be hard to switch to UEFI. Sigh. > Warner > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > -- > > > > Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> > > -- Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
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