Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:04:28 -0500 From: Seth <seth@psychotic.aberrant.org> To: Josh Paetzel <jpaetzel@hutchtel.net> Cc: Andrew Kenneth Milton <akm@mail.theinternet.com.au>, Kent Stewart <kstewart@urx.com>, mij@osdn.com, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Web page suggestion Message-ID: <20010213230428.A70865@psychotic.aberrant.org> In-Reply-To: <011901c09634$19144b00$6100000a@vladsempire.net>; from jpaetzel@hutchtel.net on Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 09:12:53PM -0600 References: <20010213104922.A70178@psychotic.aberrant.org> <20010213125007.B375@guinness.osdn.com> <3A898E22.39A43C02@urx.com> <20010213145515.B1203@guinness.osdn.com> <3A89AB42.B5F0E207@urx.com> <20010213171035.B70575@psychotic.aberrant.org> <00a201c09628$74fd7600$6100000a@vladsempire.net> <20010214123040.O39738@zeus.theinternet.com.au> <011901c09634$19144b00$6100000a@vladsempire.net>
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My comments were going to be inline, but here it is: I agree that spoon-feeding should be discouraged. You're going to have to tell me, though, how creating a link that makes it easier to download the software (AND read the necessary docs) is going to increase the luser factor. You're also going to have to prove to me that "security through obscurity" (which is how I view your idea that "if we make it hard to find, we'll weed out the kiddies") works and is in the best interest of the project. I think that giving people a central place to download AND get the documentation they need will help. It's worth a try, I think, especially since it'll take very little work from the group once the politics are ironed out. Keep a webcounter on it, and re- evaluate in 6 months. If it doesn't perform, then axe it. I also think it's completely unreasonable to expect prospective users to read the handbook "a couple of times" before giving FreeBSD a try (comments on your last post). Hell, I don't think I've read the entire handbook through end-to-end ONCE. It's a bit like K&R, IMHO -- a great reference, but not a great bedtime storybook. I'd like to take something you said in the email below and expand on it, because I think you make a very interesting point: the fact that real skill comes from "fighting through stuff" rather than having the answer blurted out. I agree completely with this, BTW. Why not then make it easier for prospective users to maximize their real time with the OS by making it easy for them to get their hands on it? If someone has to spend X minutes just trying to find out where to grab the goods, then that's X minutes that s/he doesn't have to fight through stuff once it's installed. My experience has been that frustration is cumulative: if you make the startup and installation as easy as possible, the user will invest more time before giving up in disgust. The more positive experience s/he has, the more confidence s/he gains, and the less likely s/he is to either ask stupid questions or ditch the OS entirely. Anyway, I think this discussion is getting a bit off-topic. The bottom-line question is this: does it make sense to create a page that has links to installation-specific content, and make that page "highly visible" (definition subjective) to visitors? MHO is that it can't hurt, and might even help recruit the next generation of gurus. Hell, I think it would be helpful to THIS generation of gurus, as well as those gurus who are so senile they keep forgetting where the floppy images are located and end up re-reading Appendix A for the 30th time. :) Enough for tonight. I'm off to bed. Seth. On Tue, Feb 13, 2001 at 09:12:53PM -0600, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Kenneth Milton" <akm@mail.theinternet.com.au> > To: "Josh Paetzel" <jpaetzel@hutchtel.net> > Cc: "Seth" <seth@psychotic.aberrant.org>; "Kent Stewart" > <kstewart@urx.com>; <mij@osdn.com>; <freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 8:30 PM > Subject: Re: Web page suggestion > > > > +-------[ Josh Paetzel ]---------------------- > > | > > | <rant> > > | > > | I don't think that we need to encourage users that don't want to > > | "wade" through the three links on the website to get to the > > | installation instructions. > > > > I think you severely underestimate the level of the people trying to > do this. > > Generally they're looking for alternatives, they have scratch box or > partition > > and they're trying out 3 or 4 flavours of Linux, and they want to > throw > > FreeBSD into the mix. Or they're trying out something other than > Linux because > > they're starting to hear more and more press about FreeBSD. > > > > They don't want to wade through hundreds of pages of doco to find > where > > the software is. They want to download, and have a go themselves > first > > before reading the doco. At this point, some will give up if it > doesn't > > go to plan, some will RTFH, some will ask for help on the mailling > > lists or on the various irc channels that are around. > > > > I don't think that I am underestimating people. I've helped 15 > people install FreeBSD via irc this year so far. Most of them linux > users that wanted to give FBSD a go, but a few of them had no *nix > experience at all. > > > | I think someone who is going to have a > > | good experience with FBSD is someone who will read the entire > handbook > > | a couple of times before trying an install. Someone who wants to > be > > | able to figure things out for themselves. FreeBSD has a steep > > | learning curve, and we might as well let people know that right > away. > > > > It doesn't have a steep learning curve for those who are already > familiar > > with UNIX type systems. Complete novices should still be able to > install > > the system (or find it to download it and install it), even if they > > don't know what to do with it once they've done so. > > > > Of course it doesn't have a steep learning curve for someone who > already knows unix. What does that have to do with anything? > Complete novices can install the system if they read the handbook > installation section. I did it, and I was as novice as they come. > > > | I installed FreeBSD in 1996, and I didn't have a clue about unix. > I > > | didn't know anything. It took me almost a year to be able to do > > | anything with it at all. I don't think that it is fair to people > to > > | give them the impression that FreeBSD is super user friendly. > > > > But we want it to be right? I mean we're not a group of elitists who > think > > UNIX shouldn't be available to everyone are we? Are we? > > > > Unix is available to anyone, but I don't know if we want to get into > spoon feeding people. That can get to be Extremely time consuming. I > don't know about you, but I spend anywhere from an hour to three hours > a night going through mail from the FreeBSD mailing lists. Sad to > say, but most of that time is spent on -questions. Are we elitists? > I don't know. If you look at the long-time unix gurus, you will find > that a lot of them learned unix when there really wasn't good > documentation or help available, and they figured this stuff out. Now > we have tons of docs and manuals and howto's and websites and on and > on. I can see how someone like that would look elitist to some. I > don't blame em, either. How do you learn better? I don't know about > you, but I tend to learn more when I fight through stuff then when > someone just blurts out the answer. > > > > If people want to install something to have a play, or to see what > they > > can do, we shouldn't be discouraging curiosity, or creativity. > > >From a sheer advocacy point of view, I would think having direct > > links on the front page to download the CD and floppy images can > only > > be a good thing. In fact I would put a Getting FreeBSD section on > the > > main page, not just in the sidebar (between Easy to Install and > FreeBSD > > is free, is where I'd put it d8). > > > > Like it or not the customer base is growing into a new arena, and we > > (as a community), should be taking steps to embrace the new > populous, > > even if they have goofy requests, or don't always RTF[HM]. They have > > been cultured very hard by big marketing companies that computers > > aren't scary things, and that computers don't have to be hard to use > > or operate. > > > > Personally, I think that FreeBSD should stick to its strengths. > Stability and performance in server applications. Yes sound support > and X windows eye candy and so on and so forth is nice. I don't think > that we are doing ourselves any good to try and compete as a desktop > OS, though. Can you use FreeBSD as your primary platform for desktop > applications? Yes. Does that mean that it's a good idea? I don't > know. Personally, I wouldn't mind if we kept our primary focus for > support on our primary users, namely, server type stuff. Leave the > newbies who want to be l33t and run unix on their desktop to the linux > crowd. When they are ready to run with the big dogs, then they can > move up to FreeBSD. Anyways, just my opinion. Not at all neccesarily > supported by anyone that matters. > > Josh > > > > > -- > > Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew > Milton > > The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | > > ACN: 082 081 472 ABN: 83 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe > Daemon > > PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 |akm@theinternet.com.au| > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the messagehelp
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