Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 19:15:07 -0700 From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> To: John Howie <john@thehowies.com> Cc: Marek Zarychta <zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl>, "freebsd-net@freebsd.org" <freebsd-net@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: removing RIP/RIPng (routed/route6d) Message-ID: <1d1a86d9-c08b-9699-732a-999032e61035@redbarn.org> In-Reply-To: <MN0PR84MB30249D0A4A4854B8175C9A1DD3ED2@MN0PR84MB3024.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> References: <CAFYkXjmMFuL0rtpYUO=-TTEOxiu795sxtATg6RGdHjMhHeoYew@mail.gmail.com> <MN0PR84MB3024D8CAF5915733D5F7B537C0EC2@MN0PR84MB3024.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <CAHu1Y712dPK6nnwfKwV_UtbyuQ9GUpP=OBQ%2B-s_39psZobvWrg@mail.gmail.com> <1613e4c8-c102-45a8-9f8e-3b5e7fd09e25@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> <MN0PR84MB30249D0A4A4854B8175C9A1DD3ED2@MN0PR84MB3024.NAMPRD84.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
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i think it's not too soon for the bsd community to become less reactionary. (yes, i know that's ironic coming from me.) https://nomadbsd.org/ i'd like freebsd to be fit for a lot of purposes. a complete OS is one of those that i will use the most. but not the only one for me, and not the only one for the community. take deep breaths. re: John Howie wrote on 2024-05-15 19:04: > FreeBSD (and BSD Unix in general) has a rich history of being a > “complete” OS – kernel and userland. If there was really a demand for a > minimalist version of FreeBSD, why have people not forked FreeBSD and > created it by now? There is also nanobsd, as an option, for those that > want minimalist installs (yes, I know it is meant for embedded systems, > but it works). > > I think we need to stop trying to find solutions for non-existent problems. > > *From: *owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.org <owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.org> on > behalf of Marek Zarychta <zarychtam@plan-b.pwste.edu.pl> > *Date: *Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 11:19 AM > *To: *freebsd-net@freebsd.org <freebsd-net@freebsd.org> > *Subject: *Re: removing RIP/RIPng (routed/route6d) > > Today Michael Sierchio wrote: > > There is an argument to be made that all such components of the > "base" system should be packages, and managed that way. That would > facilitate removal or addition of things like MTAs, Route daemons > for various protocols, etc. and permit them to be updated > independent of the base system. Too much is included by default in > Base. > > FreeBSD is a comprehensive OS, and most users still do appreciate this > feature. > > I remember that we had also RCS tools in the base system, they got > purged (moved to the ports tree really), most users are fine with it, > but for managing single config files RCS is still the best-suited > versioning system. We still have ftpd(8), but it was almost removed, > there was a strong battle on the mailing list to preserve it. FTP > protocol is as old as BSD, but it's still valid and, so far not > deprecated. A similar story was with smbfs(5). The same probably applies > to RIP/RIPng. > What if we would better remove LLVM from the base if the system is > bloated ? LLVM needs frequent updates and keeping it in base is far more > risky in terms of system security than keeping RIP daemons. Why do we > still have odd tools like biff(1) in the base ? > > On the other hand, for a significant share of the user base, the more > tiny the OS is, the better. The transition to PkgBase should fulfill > user needs, especially those, who want a minimalist OS. So please, go > ahead and switch to PgkBase if your FreeBSD system contains undesired > software. > > Cheers > > Marek > > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 1:01 PM John Howie <john@thehowies.com > <mailto:john@thehowies.com>> wrote: > > I use RIP all the time. Removing it would be a pain. What is the > justification? Moving it to ports is an option, but now we have > to compile, distribute, and install it. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 15, 2024, at 07:40, Tomek CEDRO <tomek@cedro.info > <mailto:tomek@cedro.info>> wrote: > > > > On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 4:20 PM Scott > <uatka3z4zagp@thismonkey.com > <mailto:uatka3z4zagp@thismonkey.com>> wrote: > >>> On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 09:49:27PM +0100, Lexi Winter wrote: > >>> (..) > >>> i'd like to submit a patch to remove both of these daemons > from src. if > >>> there's some concern that people still want to use the BSD > >>> implementation of routed/route6d, i'm also willing to > submit a port such > >>> as net/freebsd-routed containing the old code, in a similar > way to how > >>> the removal of things like window(1) and telnetd(8) were > handled. > >> > >> I use RIPv2 for it's simplicity and small memory and CPU > requirements. It > >> has its place and shouldn't be considered "legacy" despite > its shortcomings. > >> It's not uncommon for vendors like Cisco to produce "basic" > feature sets of > >> IOS that do not include any link-state protocols. > >> > >> Anyway, I'm a user, albeit a small user, of RIP and wouldn't > object to its > >> removal from FreeBSD if there were a small footprint > alternative. I've used > >> FRR and VyOS a bit and they are overkill as replacements. > >> > >> Your email doesn't justify its removal other than to say you > are unconvinced > >> of the value of shipping it. As a user I definitely see the > value. I > >> understand that there is always a cost to providing code, > but that wasn't > >> suggested as a reason. All APIs, modules, utilities, etc. > need to regularly > >> justify their presence in the OS. > >> > >> If it must be removed, is there any way to fork the FreeBSD > routed and > >> route6d to a port? Or would that defeat the purpose of > removing it in the > >> first place? > > > > Yeah, where did that recent trend came to FreeBSD to remove > perfectly > > working code?? > > > > There are more and more ideas in recent times like this. > > > > Architectures removal, drivers removal, backward compatibility > > removal. While basic functions become unstable and > unreliable. Looks > > more like diversion and sabotage than progress. > > > > If anything is about to be moved out from SRC for a really > good reason > > it should be available in ports and not in /dev/null. > > > -- P Vixie
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