Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 12:32:41 -0600 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> Cc: Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org>, freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, FreeBSD questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>, FreeBSD Current <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc. Message-ID: <CANCZdfrCkOd5GTvFr4Cek-TDNp=PaQFgZV7k5RT7TFs56pW48w@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAD2Ti2-UpyXYnNYCVCh%2BcUs-Q70b47CMeiPSK6BgYhB_3C0cLQ@mail.gmail.com> <753A27F9-9CEA-4592-A44F-91164917358B@freebsd.org> <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com>
index | next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail
[-- Attachment #1 --] On Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 12:20 PM Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote: > So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do > it), what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 != HTML. > UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients > and does not require HTML for support. > Html is fine as well. Most modern mail platforms generate it for you, whether you want them too or not. Most of the advice in appendix c is dated and doesn't really match what people do on the lists. Phones and web based Gmail are to large a presence to ignore or have policies against. I stopped listening to complaints about how Gmail or my phone formatted posts 5 years ago... and I'm definitely an old school straggler... Warner > Walter > > On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc >> >> >> FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections >> >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264754 >> >> >> I'm glad that HTML is supported. >> >> >> No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists. >> Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's. >> >> Also, I want support for things such as PNG. >> >> >> Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes, >> but rightly tend to be administratively size limited. >> >> What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in >> >> the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all >> >> the messages? >> >> >> There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat. >> Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and >> via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat. >> >> >> we are dealing with real people working with the email >> >> clients available to them in 2022 >> >> >> Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette >> won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and disciplined. >> >> >> Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various >> arguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave very >> specific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on >> mobile devices where people don’t have control over many aspects of how >> things are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still >> be followed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if we >> want to have communication happen on our mailing lists. >> >> My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to >> follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses >> the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to >> use ASCII - but there is no way I’ll change every single "‘" to "'" >> manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an >> acceptable experience. Just won’t happen. >> >> If your email client and/or your desktop can’t handle UTF-8, it’s time to >> fix your setup. >> >> -m >> >> p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists? >> >> > > -- > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of > zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis > [-- Attachment #2 --] <div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 26, 2022, 12:20 PM Walter Parker <<a href="mailto:walterp@gmail.com">walterp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it), what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 != HTML. UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients and does not require HTML for support.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Html is fine as well. Most modern mail platforms generate it for you, whether you want them too or not. Most of the advice in appendix c is dated and doesn't really match what people do on the lists. Phones and web based Gmail are to large a presence to ignore or have policies against. I stopped listening to complaints about how Gmail or my phone formatted posts 5 years ago... and I'm definitely an old school straggler...</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Warner </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Walter<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <<a href="mailto:grembo@freebsd.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">grembo@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264754" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264754</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>I'm glad that HTML is supported.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists.</span><br><span>Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>Also, I want support for things such as PNG.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes,</span><br><span>but rightly tend to be administratively size limited.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the messages?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat.</span><br><span>Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and</span><br><span>via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat.</span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>we are dealing with real people working with the email</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>clients available to them in 2022</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette</span><br><span>won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and disciplined.</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various arguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave very specific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile devices where people don’t have control over many aspects of how things are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be followed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if we want to have communication happen on our mailing lists.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use ASCII - but there is no way I’ll change every single "‘" to "'" manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an acceptable experience. Just won’t happen.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><font color="#000000"><span>If your email client and/or your desktop can’t handle UTF-8, it’s time to fix your setup.</span></font></div><div><br></div><div>-m</div><div><br></div><div>p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136,136,136)">The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis</span></div></div> </blockquote></div></div></div>help
Want to link to this message? Use this
URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?CANCZdfrCkOd5GTvFr4Cek-TDNp=PaQFgZV7k5RT7TFs56pW48w>