Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 20:53:14 +0200 From: Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> To: Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc. Message-ID: <5BCE171C-8D95-47E9-AD8E-8F2B75F5E8B5@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] > On 26. Jun 2022, at 20:19, Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote: > > > So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it), I didn’t insinuate that it’s good for me to post to three lists at a time either, but how would you decide which one to leave out when responding to a post you received on multiple lists? My original response reduced the number of lists involved, but I was quoted on all three lists again, so I also responded on all of them. > what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 != HTML. UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients and does not require HTML for support. > At some point in this email exchange he was suggesting to remove any kind of special characters from email and documentation and my original response (he quoted) was partially about this. If it’s just about HTML: I would love to eliminate HTML email, but most email clients create it without the user having a chance to intervene. An example is iOS Mail, which creates html as soon as you copy and paste almost anything into it. AFAIK it still manages to create a useful plain text alternative (unlike BBOS 10, if anyone remembers), which makes it better than other email clients - so filtering away html in this case would be fine. But there is no option that says “send plaintext email”. I also agree that the original exchange that sparked this debate was quite terrible in terms of email formatting (it looked like outlook, no quoting, top posting like exchanging written letters, using various font types and sizes). So if we could eliminate these kind of emails, I would be happy. Cheers Michael p.s. I’m pretty sure top posting is also against netiquette - unless *you* do it of course ;) > > Walter > >> On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote: >> >> >>>> On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc >>>> >>>> FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections >>>> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264754 >>>> >>>> I'm glad that HTML is supported. >>> >>> No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists. >>> Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's. >>> >>>> Also, I want support for things such as PNG. >>> >>> Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes, >>> but rightly tend to be administratively size limited. >>> >>>> What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in >>>> the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all >>>> the messages? >>> >>> There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat. >>> Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and >>> via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat. >>> >>> >>>> we are dealing with real people working with the email >>>> clients available to them in 2022 >>> >>> Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette >>> won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and disciplined. >> >> Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various arguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave very specific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile devices where people don’t have control over many aspects of how things are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be followed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if we want to have communication happen on our mailing lists. >> >> My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use ASCII - but there is no way I’ll change every single "‘" to "'" manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an acceptable experience. Just won’t happen. >> >> If your email client and/or your desktop can’t handle UTF-8, it’s time to fix your setup. >> >> -m >> >> p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists? >> > > > -- > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis [-- Attachment #2 --] <html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 26. Jun 2022, at 20:19, Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it),</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I didn’t insinuate that it’s good for me to post to three lists at a time either, but how would you decide which one to leave out when responding to a post you received on multiple lists? My original response reduced the number of lists involved, but I was quoted on all three lists again, so I also responded on all of them.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 != HTML. UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients and does not require HTML for support.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At some point in this email exchange he was suggesting to remove any kind of special characters from email and documentation and my original response (he quoted) was partially about this.</div><div><br></div><div>If it’s just about HTML: I would love to eliminate HTML email, but most email clients create it without the user having a chance to intervene. An example is iOS Mail, which creates html as soon as you copy and paste almost anything into it. AFAIK it still manages to create a useful plain text alternative (unlike BBOS 10, if anyone remembers), which makes it better than other email clients - so filtering away html in this case would be fine. But there is no option that says “send plaintext email”.</div><div><br></div><div>I also agree that the original exchange that sparked this debate was quite terrible in terms of email formatting (it looked like outlook, no quoting, top posting like exchanging written letters, using various font types and sizes). So if we could eliminate these kind of emails, I would be happy.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Michael </div><div><br></div>p.s. I’m pretty sure top posting is also against netiquette - unless *you* do it of course ;)<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Walter<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <<a href="mailto:grembo@freebsd.org">grembo@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com" target="_blank">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc" target="_blank">https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span><a href="https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264754" target="_blank">https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264754</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>I'm glad that HTML is supported.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists.</span><br><span>Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>Also, I want support for things such as PNG.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes,</span><br><span>but rightly tend to be administratively size limited.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>the messages?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat.</span><br><span>Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and</span><br><span>via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat.</span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type="cite"><span>we are dealing with real people working with the email</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><span>clients available to them in 2022</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette</span><br><span>won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and disciplined.</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various arguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave very specific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile devices where people don’t have control over many aspects of how things are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be followed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if we want to have communication happen on our mailing lists.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to follow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the typographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use ASCII - but there is no way I’ll change every single "‘" to "'" manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an acceptable experience. Just won’t happen.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><font color="#000000"><span>If your email client and/or your desktop can’t handle UTF-8, it’s time to fix your setup.</span></font></div><div><br></div><div>-m</div><div><br></div><div>p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136,136,136)">The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis</span></div></div> </div></blockquote></div></body></html>help
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