Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 20:53:14 +0200 From: Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> To: Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Posting netiquette: HTML, attachments etc. Message-ID: <5BCE171C-8D95-47E9-AD8E-8F2B75F5E8B5@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMPTd_DeZL=E_fPb-VzwP%2B32stLMK68hzONAS21hjOr16m-apQ@mail.gmail.com>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
--Apple-Mail-1847D58B-9A02-4D3C-A5B8-EEED72944327 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 26. Jun 2022, at 20:19, Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it= ), I didn=E2=80=99t insinuate that it=E2=80=99s good for me to post to three li= sts at a time either, but how would you decide which one to leave out when r= esponding to a post you received on multiple lists? My original response red= uced the number of lists involved, but I was quoted on all three lists again= , so I also responded on all of them. > what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D HTML. U= TF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email clients and= does not require HTML for support. >=20 At some point in this email exchange he was suggesting to remove any kind of= special characters from email and documentation and my original response (h= e quoted) was partially about this. If it=E2=80=99s just about HTML: I would love to eliminate HTML email, but m= ost email clients create it without the user having a chance to intervene. A= n example is iOS Mail, which creates html as soon as you copy and paste almo= st anything into it. AFAIK it still manages to create a useful plain text al= ternative (unlike BBOS 10, if anyone remembers), which makes it better than o= ther email clients - so filtering away html in this case would be fine. But t= here is no option that says =E2=80=9Csend plaintext email=E2=80=9D. I also agree that the original exchange that sparked this debate was quite t= errible in terms of email formatting (it looked like outlook, no quoting, to= p posting like exchanging written letters, using various font types and size= s). So if we could eliminate these kind of emails, I would be happy. Cheers Michael=20 p.s. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure top posting is also against netiquette - unless= *you* do it of course ;) >=20 > Walter >=20 >> On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote= : >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On 26. Jun 2022, at 09:37, grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>=20 >>>> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/= en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc >>>>=20 >>>> FreeBSD Handbook: Appendix C: updates and corrections >>>> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D264754 >>>>=20 >>>> I'm glad that HTML is supported. >>>=20 >>> No, people should not be sending HTML emails to lists. >>> Consult history of email netiquettes to discover the many why's. >>>=20 >>>> Also, I want support for things such as PNG. >>>=20 >>> Attachments are not necessarily against such netiquettes, >>> but rightly tend to be administratively size limited. >>>=20 >>>> What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in >>>> the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that is already appended to all >>>> the messages? >>>=20 >>> There is no such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat. >>> Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and >>> via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> we are dealing with real people working with the email >>>> clients available to them in 2022 >>>=20 >>> Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 etc, and the netiquette >>> won validity for good reasons and is still taught trained and discipline= d. >>=20 >> Trying to stop people from using UTF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various a= rguments from different people without context is bad style - I gave very sp= ecific examples, including the fact that a lot of email is written on mobile= devices where people don=E2=80=99t have control over many aspects of how th= ings are sent and I argued which parts of netiquette could/should still be f= ollowed given the realities of today and where we need to relax if we want t= o have communication happen on our mailing lists. >>=20 >> My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to foll= ow any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the t= ypographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use A= SCII - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80=98" to "= '" manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an acc= eptable experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen. >>=20 >> If your email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2= =80=99s time to fix your setup. >>=20 >> -m >>=20 >> p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multiple lists? >>=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of z= eal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Louis D. Brandeis --Apple-Mail-1847D58B-9A02-4D3C-A5B8-EEED72944327 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 26. Jun 2022, at 20= :19, Walter Parker <walterp@gmail.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></di= v><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>= So, utf-8 is good, posting to multiple lists is bad (but ok when you do it),= </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I didn=E2=80=99t insinuat= e that it=E2=80=99s good for me to post to three lists at a time either, but= how would you decide which one to leave out when responding to a post you r= eceived on multiple lists? My original response reduced the number of lists i= nvolved, but I was quoted on all three lists again, so I also responded on a= ll of them.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"= ltr"><div>what about the original post? He was asking about HTML. UTF-8 !=3D= HTML. UTF is a character encoding format. It is supported by most email cli= ents and does not require HTML for support.</div><div><br></div></div></div>= </blockquote><div><br></div><div>At some point in this email exchange he was= suggesting to remove any kind of special characters from email and document= ation and my original response (he quoted) was partially about this.</div><d= iv><br></div><div>If it=E2=80=99s just about HTML: I would love to eliminate= HTML email, but most email clients create it without the user having a chan= ce to intervene. An example is iOS Mail, which creates html as soon as you c= opy and paste almost anything into it. AFAIK it still manages to create a us= eful plain text alternative (unlike BBOS 10, if anyone remembers), which mak= es it better than other email clients - so filtering away html in this case w= ould be fine. But there is no option that says =E2=80=9Csend plaintext email= =E2=80=9D.</div><div><br></div><div>I also agree that the original exchange t= hat sparked this debate was quite terrible in terms of email formatting (it l= ooked like outlook, no quoting, top posting like exchanging written letters,= using various font types and sizes). So if we could eliminate these kind of= emails, I would be happy.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Michael= </div><div><br></div>p.s. I=E2=80=99m pretty sure top posting is also a= gainst netiquette - unless *you* do it of course ;)<div><br><blockquote type= =3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Walter<br></= div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On S= un, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:56 AM Michael Gmelin <<a href=3D"mailto:grembo@free= bsd.org">grembo@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma= il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20= 4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D= "ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 26. Jun 20= 22, at 09:37, grarpamp <<a href=3D"mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com" target=3D"_= blank">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquo= te type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span><= a href=3D"https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/con= tent/en/books/handbook/eresources/_index.adoc" target=3D"_blank">https://git= hub.com/freebsd/freebsd-doc/blob/main/documentation/content/en/books/handboo= k/eresources/_index.adoc</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite= "><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>FreeBSD Hand= book: Appendix C: updates and corrections</span><br></blockquote><blockquote= type=3D"cite"><span><a href=3D"https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.c= gi?id=3D264754" target=3D"_blank">https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug= .cgi?id=3D264754</a></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>= </span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>I'm glad that HTML i= s supported.</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>No, people should= not be sending HTML emails to lists.</span><br><span>Consult history of ema= il netiquettes to discover the many why's.</span><br><span></span><br><block= quote type=3D"cite"><span>Also, I want support for things such as PNG.</span= ><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>Attachments are not necessarily aga= inst such netiquettes,</span><br><span>but rightly tend to be administrative= ly size limited.</span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>= What is the possibility of getting the/a "netiquette" link in</span><br></bl= ockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>the FreeBSD Mailinglist footer that= is already appended to all</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"= ><span>the messages?</span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span>There is n= o such footer appended to the lists, because they're bloat.</span><br><span>= Their aims usually better done at first via signup, in quarterly, and</span>= <br><span>via the occaisional involuntary and accepted friendly cluebat.</sp= an><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>we a= re dealing with real people working with the email</span><br></blockquote><b= lockquote type=3D"cite"><span>clients available to them in 2022</span><br></= blockquote><span></span><br><span>Same arguments was made in 1982 1992 2002 e= tc, and the netiquette</span><br><span>won validity for good reasons and is s= till taught trained and disciplined.</span><br></div></blockquote><div><br><= /div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Trying to stop people from using U= TF-8 is futile. Also, quoting various arguments from different people withou= t context is bad style - I gave very specific examples, including the fact t= hat a lot of email is written on mobile devices where people don=E2=80=99t h= ave control over many aspects of how things are sent and I argued which part= s of netiquette could/should still be followed given the realities of today a= nd where we need to relax if we want to have communication happen on our mai= ling lists.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"= >My answer here is an example of that - there is no reasonable way to follow= any line length limits on a phone and it also automatically chooses the typ= ographically correct UTF-8 characters, even though I would prefer to use ASC= II - but there is no way I=E2=80=99ll change every single "=E2=80=98" to "'"= manually or disable the features that make typing on such a device an accep= table experience. Just won=E2=80=99t happen.</span></div><div><span style=3D= "color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><span>If yo= ur email client and/or your desktop can=E2=80=99t handle UTF-8, it=E2=80=99s= time to fix your setup.</span></font></div><div><br></div><div>-m</div><div= ><br></div><div>p.s. Is it really necessary to have this discussion on multi= ple lists?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><b= r>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><span style=3D"font-fami= ly:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136,13= 6,136)">The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by me= n of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding. -- Justice Lo= uis D. Brandeis</span></div></div> </div></blockquote></div></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-1847D58B-9A02-4D3C-A5B8-EEED72944327--
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?5BCE171C-8D95-47E9-AD8E-8F2B75F5E8B5>