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Date:      Sun, 28 Feb 2021 13:35:14 -0600
From:      Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu>
To:        Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com>
Cc:        freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Somewhat OT: Mail Relay Services
Message-ID:  <961A9522-3E57-45F0-8123-3FF31BF2209F@kicp.uchicago.edu>
In-Reply-To: <2af27c4e-b4dd-944a-4edb-907ccc9909e2@tundraware.com>
References:  <877d08ef-d533-69f6-4c44-f2cbbe39ba31@tundraware.com> <b3b3fce5-ae71-047e-33f6-4f0483f7e759@pinyon.org> <2af27c4e-b4dd-944a-4edb-907ccc9909e2@tundraware.com>

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> On Feb 28, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On 2/28/21 1:17 PM, Russell L. Carter wrote:
>> On 2/28/21 11:01 AM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:
>>> For many years, I've run a mail system built on FreeBSD for my own =
small business.
>>> It's been as flawless as any mail server ever can be, requiring only =
periodic
>>> maintenance and updates.
>>>=20
>>> The primary server runs in a 3rd party cloud environment.  We are =
starting to
>>> see parts of their network blacklisted by the various UCE =
blackholing services.
>>> Unfortunately, they don't just blackhole a single IP, but an entire =
subnet at
>>> a time, which catches us in the mix.
>>>=20
>>> The big mail hubs like outlook.com no longer have a mechanism for =
removing the block
>>> for a single ip and kick you back to your ISP or hosting provider =
for resolution.
>>>=20
>>> So ... we are contemplating using a smart host to do all our =
outbound email for us
>>> via relays from our own mail servers.  Presumably, such a smart host =
would be better
>>> equipped to deal with bad blacklisting and delivery issues.
>>>=20
>>> So ... does anyone have experience or recommendations as to who =
would be a good
>>> provider for a low volume, small business mail relay?
>>=20
>> I'm all ears and appreciative of any pointers on this topic as well.
>> I have been running my own mail servers for two domains for > 20 =
years.
>> The volume is so low and I try to stay "mainstream" in configuration
>> so I've never been blacklisted (that I know about, I watch).  =
However,
>> my current last mile ISP is centurylink, from whom I lease 5 static
>> ips.  And they just up and deleted my ptr records for over a month,
>> and didn't fix it, even after hours on chat, until I shamed them with
>> an analysis on dslreports, showing how their tech support was flat
>> out stupid or lying.  It happens, but it made terrified of being
>> reliant on them.  So I've decided to put my dovecot+rspamd+postfix
>> system up on some popular VPS.   I am leaning toward vultr, haven't
>> had any problems with them for years, but I've never needed to
>> ask them to open port 25, and they require you to ask.
>=20
> I long ago moved off my last mile ISP and put my mail/dns/http
> FreeBSD instance on Digital Ocean.  Other than the subnet
> blocking issues, they've been great.  I originally chose them
> because they were the only cost-effective cloud hosting vendor
> that supported FreeBSD (10.x in those days, but I've done
> regular source updates since then.)
>=20
>>=20
>> But I hadn't thought that my co-tenants might cause me a problem with
>> blacklisted subnets!
>=20
> The problem is that the cloud hosting companies don't have the
> resources to play whack-a-mole with every script kiddie or
> spammer that rents an ephemeral instance to act badly.   The big
> mail routers like outlook, yahoo, hotmail, etc.  Are too lazy to
> list individual IPs so they just block subnets.

At some providers majority of tenants have DHCP addresses. Also, some =
spammers register =E2=80=9Cfew day, one big spam explosion=E2=80=9D =
domains. That is how you give up blocking single IPs, and even class C =
networks (x.y.z.0/24). If blocking like that you just decide: is the =
owner of IPs such whose whole registered range of IP addresses can be =
safely blocked.

And after dealing with things this particular way, you acquire solid =
opinion that things like barracuda.com are brain-dead technologies. And =
you start dealing with spam differently.

Valeri

>> Anybody know of a successful strategy here?  Maintaining your own
>> servers can occasionally be a pain, but I really like managing my
>> own servers exactly how I want them.
> I am playing with Matt's suggestion to use DuoCircle as a smart relay.
> This looks promising.
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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> Tim Daneliuk     tundra@tundraware.com
> PGP Key:         http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/
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