Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 10:25:05 +0100 From: Chris Zumbrunn <chris@czv.com> To: freebsd-www@freebsd.org Cc: Ceri Davies <ceri@submonkey.net> Subject: Re: Rework of the FreeBSD website[was:FreeBSD'sVisualIdentity:Outdated?] Message-ID: <55F14096-6B8E-11D9-8A1E-000A95C969C6@czv.com> In-Reply-To: <41E5858E.10600@nbritton.org> References: <9FC79942-5DE3-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><AC17F3AB-5EFE-11D9-BEAB-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><20050108144127.GA75006@sumuk.de><8B30EFDE-6195-11D9-A996-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><d9175cad05010914171ee95c7e@mail.gmail.com><20050110180345.GC49329@submonkey.net><F7F917E2-63BA-11D9-B8D2-000A95C969C6@zumbrunn.com><41E50DE3.5050105@nbritton.org> <20050112155215.GU49329@submonkey.net><41E55A4D.4090507@nbritton.org> <20050112195203.GW49329@submonkey.net> <41E5858E.10600@nbritton.org>
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On Jan 12, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Nikolas Britton wrote: > Ceri Davies wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 11:11:41AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote: >> >>> Ceri Davies wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 05:45:39AM -0600, Nikolas Britton wrote: >>>> >>>>> Chris Zumbrunn wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Jan 10, 2005, at 7:03 PM, Ceri Davies wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 04:17:01PM -0600, Eric Kjeldergaard >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Something we do a lot at my workplace (web development firm, >>>>>>>> mostly) >>>>>>>> is to have underlines on rollovers and (on some sites >>>>>>>> unselected, >>>>>>>> depending of course on user preference). I would prefer to not >>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>> the blue underlined if we could avoid it. Of course with the >>>>>>>> modern >>>>>>>> css technology, it's not an issue because any user that wants >>>>>>>> blue >>>>>>>> underlined links (vision impairment, personal preference, etc) >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> override the link colour via his/her client. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am sure that people with vision impairment would love to mess >>>>>>> around >>>>>>> trying to edit a custom stylesheet because you don't like blue >>>>>>> anchors. >>>>>>> I quite like the rest of this patch, but removing the underline >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> links is evil. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> People with vision impairment set their browser to override the >>>>>> stylesheet, so the web works best for them personally. This is >>>>>> not something that is specific to a particular site. I would >>>>>> argue that underlining links impairs the vision of everybody else >>>>>> ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> The important thing is consistency: If it's blue it's a link, if >>>>>> it's not blue it's not a link. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> This link should be helpful: >>>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040510.html >>>>> >>>> Thank you (I am slightly shocked that it took two days for someone >>>> to >>>> agree with me). The W3c agree: >>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-color >>>> >>>> >>> I not trying to agree with anyone, just providing reference to what >>> the experts think. Also you have to realize the target user of this >>> website, 90% (more like 99.999%) have at least some technical >>> background. Therefore they know how the web works and what and where >>> links are. As far as the blind, what good is the website if they >>> can't use the product?, AFAIK FreeBSD has no built-in accessibility >>> and those blind people that did manage to get it installed are again >>> going to have a technical background and will know how to navigate >>> the web (the only thing they need are ALT/Title tags). This leaves >>> only color blind people that we need to accommodate, text based web >>> browsers (which don't display links as underlined or real link >>> colors, pull up the FreeBSD site in Links), and old people (I group >>> in the low-vision users here). So the only thing I agree with from >>> Jakob Nielsen site is that of link color, normal text as the same >>> color as links, using hover if links are not underlined, and the old >>> people stuff. I don't care if links are underlined or not. >>> >> >> Everything above boils down to "I don't see how this makes it hard for >> people, so it's probably ok". I don't imagine that blind users (of >> which there are quite a few) could care less whether links are >> underlined or not, but if having links underlined makes it easier >> for one person to find them (and I count towards that, so it's already >> fulfilled) for whatever reason then they should be underlined. >> >> How about all the people who *don't* want them underlined do the thing >> with the user-agent style sheets and see how keen they are on imposing >> it on others then? >> >> In short: I will not commit, and will request a backout of, any patch >> that turns off underlined links on the website. I may not stop short >> of >> backing it out myself either, and with that said I'll try not to reply >> to this thread any more, for the sake of everyone's sanity. >> >> Ceri >> > Like I said earlier, I don't care ether way :-) ... So reading between > the lines does this mean you'll commit the patch (do you have the > power to do this?) if he underlines the links? Here's what that would look like: http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb1f.html http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freebsdweb2f.html Chris chris@czv.com +41 329 41 41 41 Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/ Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum
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