Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:35:22 +1100 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za> Cc: Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list Message-ID: <19980302213522.52802@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za>; from Jeremy Lea on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 10:32:01AM %2B0200 References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980301224633.27288A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au> <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za>
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On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 10:32:01AM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote:
> Hi...
>
> On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 06:25:45PM +1100, Sue Blake wrote:
> > Then someone needs to find someone who runs dos/win. Even better if they can
> > sit and watch someone try to access the information to see what they do.
> > I wouldn't have a clue about that, having never tried it myself, but I bet I
> > could find out by asking enough newbies.
>
> The problem only lies in the way the text versions of the docs are produced.
> They have hidden control codes which are Unix only (to display nicely in
> more), and should really be made 7-bit clean in the build. It's fairly
> simple.
What? How on earth could something like that get through?
> When I started with FreeBSD I printed the entire handbook (helps to have big
> postscript printers around :) and read it from cover to cover, skipping
> things when I got bored. The postscript version should come broken down into
> sections so you only have to print the pages you want, and should be
> converted to PDF (which can be done with GhostScript - not sure if it
> works).
With ghostscript? That's the first I've heard of it.
> That way Windows people (who know about Acrobat but not postscript)
> can view and print things.
I know a lot of windows people who don't know about acrobat, haven't got the
reader, and can't easily get it now that it's become a monster. For the ones
who do have it, a PDF would be useful. A Word document would be the most
accessible of all for windows users, but useless to DOS users. Everyone can
read and print plain text.
> Printing is very important, especially in the
> install stage. You want to have the installation instructions clearly laid
> out, so you can tick off what you have done, write down what you changed,
> make other notes, write down error messages and information such as the IRQ
> for your network card...
I never had the luxury of a printed copy, but I've used the HTML versions a
lot.
> Since getting things up and running I have seldom gone back to the FAQ or
> Handbook (mostly only for things like porting instructions), but when
> looking at them on the web I find that they are broken down into bits which
> are too small. I'd rather have them come down in larger chunks so I can
> scroll up and down rather than have to move between pages.
I would have agreed with you before I downgraded to a 386. The larger pages
take forever to load in lynx. But it hasn't been a big issue.
> Now for the real reason I wanted to reply... While reading this thread the
> idea of a newbie brag list entered my mind...
Yep, it'd be nice if that was its main use.
> Watching the success stories would also help in documenting the system,
> because it will soon be noticed where people struggled. It might also lead
> to less questions, because people will have instructions written by newbies
> for doing newbie things.
And writing instructions is a good way to consolidate learning, especially
if feedback comes from peers rather than gods.
> Helping with better questions? not sure... it might
> take up some of the really silly questions people are to afraid to ask, like
> "I don't have this /usr/ports directory people keep talking about...", but
> there are always doing to be stupid questions and people who aren't even
> willing to look for answers themselves.
Actually, I don't have a problem with new people who are not willing to look
things up. They simply have more problems than the people who do try to help
themselves, and need more guidance, including the chance to learn the
importance of using documentation and how to access it. It's not always
their fault. They've been using software that strongly discourages the kind
of behaviour that they're going to need, and nobody's told them different.
I find it very difficult to see why these people with more problems than the
others should be denied a chance to learn about their second problem, let
alone why they should be made to feel small because they're following their
old do-the-right-thing techniques. They need help to appreciate the new
learning environment, not to be punished for not recognising it immediately.
Newbies are expected to know so much that does not relate directly to
freebsd that someone has to tell them how to do the other stuff too, without
confusing lack of these skills with lack of access to freebsd help. Don't
punish them for being lazy until it's very clear that they know what's
required and why.
> But by positioning the list as a brag list rather than a questions list,
> there will be no pressure to respond to postings, so questions will go
> unanswered. This might maintain a separation between -newbies, -questions,
> and -hackers.
Of course it'll be used as a brag list, and whatever else is wanted by the
people who it is for. It will also be used for whatever might not be
suitable for -questions, either before or (hopefully not) after the event.
Most importantly, it'll be a place where newcomers can feel valued, right
from their first welcome.
--
Regards,
-*Sue*-
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