Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 12:05:35 -0800 From: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> Cc: Hans Petter Selasky <hps@selasky.org>, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@komquats.com>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" <arch@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Message-ID: <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> In-Reply-To: Message from "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> of "Sun, 03 Dec 2017 08:55:18 -0800." <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>
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In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W. Gri mes" writes: > > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > In message <CANCZdfrYdQTtjZJ_+jSVr25wjAZXd-+4atSaeT5ahfprbtXHWw@mail.gmai > l.c > > > om> > > > , Warner Losh writes: > > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > >> > > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to merge > > >>> > > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very differe > nt > > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a ufdformat > > >>> instead. > > >> > > >> > > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a need t > o > > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of the co > de. > > >> Is ufd working for you? > > > > > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I said > > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge them. > > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) maybe it > 's > > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we have t > he > > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would be > > > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > > > >> > > >> > > >>>> > > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > > >>> deprecated, > > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and has bee > n a > > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > >>> > > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is for t > he > > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD driv > es. > > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the abil > ity > > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep some for > m of > > >>> support fd or ufd. > > >> > > >> > > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > > > > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether it b > e > > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for subsequent > > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought to my > > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old flop > py > > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing machi > ne > > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > > > > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD drives > > > not too many years from now... > > > > > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) itself > > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB fd can > > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 and > > > remove in 13? > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > > still important: > > > > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us-military-uses-8-inch-fl > oppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > > > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy people > > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support > > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows > > installation to read such disks. > > > > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. > > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source code. > > > > --HPS > > I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now. If you remove > the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they > well just compile a customer kernel and do there work. So using this as > a "is anyone using it" is a straw man. > > That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal > with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD > deal with it using my prefered OS. > > Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find > a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal > with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system > as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD > in the name of some progress. > > **RANT ON** > > Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so > my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, > it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers > can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 > lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass > of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c > running? > > I further know of someone who just told me they completed > a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB > zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person > is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done > with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form > of support. It is possible that person netbooted an > older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types > of abilities. > > **DOUBLE RANT** > > Having been gone from the project for a long time and > looking at it from the outside my observation is that > FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and > a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few > years. > > Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection > of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that > has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken > cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it > to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken. > > If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise > you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle > comparied to the ocean we shall create. > > Rather than spend time running around the tree finding > rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious > effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has > rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it. > > ** END RANTS** I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) controllers and take a poke at it. USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into the existing fdformat. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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