Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:37:29 -0500 From: Paul Schmehl <pschmehl_lists@tx.rr.com> To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: challenge: end of life for 6.2 is premature with buggy 6.3 Message-ID: <5B0709D83455470DA46533C4@Macintosh.local> In-Reply-To: <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <9B7FE91B-9C2E-4732-866C-930AC6022A40@netconsonance.com> <48472DB6.5030909@samsco.org> <6010676B-91B0-4AF8-ACF8-039A59B29331@netconsonance.com> <200806050248.59229.max@love2party.net> <B9B83C12-7130-490D-A4BE-0469711B24DC@netconsonance.com> <20080605083907.GD1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <902E9703E6E50776A17E9F92@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <20080605220244.GP1028@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <34E9F0D46D7B9F45EDA38F4C@utd65257.utdallas.edu> <86tzg6aeye.fsf@ds4.des.no>
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--==========34D007FB25C9E2EAFF21========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline --On June 6, 2008 3:08:25 PM +0200 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav <des@des.no> = wrote: > Paul Schmehl <pschmehl_lists@tx.rr.com> writes: >> [...] I reacted in anger because I felt the OP was being savagely >> attacked rather than being responded to with professionalism. Later >> in the thread some folks got around to asking which PRs he was >> referring to, but that was after attacking him for having the temerity >> to suggest that perhaps 6.2 shouldn't be EOL. [...] I don't recall >> him ever refusing. I think after his initial post he's been forced to >> defend himself from attack from 360 degrees. [...] > > I came in late, and thus had the benefit of reading most of thread in > context rather than piece by piece over time, and in my opinion, the > above is a gross misrepresentation. I think you need to go back and > re-read the thread from the beginning. Here, let me help you. Thanks for the help. My point still stands. I think the behavior of the developers on the=20 lists should be of as high a quality as the work they do on the OS (which, = as I have stated, is first rate.) Descending to the levels that some have = (some of which you quote here) reflects poorly on the OS and its=20 developers. The fact that FreeBSD is open source does not negate the fact that its=20 users are its customers and should be treated with respect,=20 professionalism and yes, patience. And again, I am trying neither to excuse nor to defend Jo's behavior.=20 That's his gauntlet. I am saying that the fact that developers possess a=20 unique and valuable skill that is much appreciated by those of us who use=20 the product of their labor does not excuse or justify some of the boorish=20 behavior that was exhibited in this thread - regardless of how insulting=20 one may have felt Jo's responses were. Since a lot of people seem to want to pontificate without doing much of=20 anything helpful, allow me to bring this discussion back to Jo's point: <http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?category=3D&severity=3D&pr= iority=3D&class=3D&state=3D&sort=3Dnone&text=3Dbge&responsible=3D&multitext= =3D&originator=3D&release=3D%5EFreeBSD+6> That url lists 6 serious problems for bge and 3 non-critical problems,=20 some dating to more than two years ago. Two were patched, one is=20 suspended and 6 are still open; four of those critical. <http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?category=3D&severity=3D&pr= iority=3D&class=3D&state=3D&sort=3Dnone&text=3Dgmirror&responsible=3D&multi= text=3D&originator=3D&release=3D%5EFreeBSD+6> That url lists 1 serious problem and 3 non-critical problems with gmirror, = all of which remain open. <http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi?category=3D&severity=3D&pr= iority=3D&class=3D&state=3D&sort=3Dnone&text=3Dtwe&responsible=3D&multitext= =3D&originator=3D&release=3D%5EFreeBSD+6> That url refers to locking problems that cause kernel panics using the twe = driver. <http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/107608>; That url refers to a hang that renders a system unusable when using the=20 twa driver. Jo's concerns about updating to 6.3 rather than sticking with a system=20 that's working for him don't seem unreasonable to me. Do they to you? Furthermore, it seems the reaction of developers, that he wasn't being=20 specific enough are rendered moot by the urls above, which were easily=20 accessed by me, someone with little knowledge at all of two of the three=20 issues. So, rather than berating Jo for not producing PRs, wouldn't it=20 have been more professional to list the relevant PRs (just as I have done, = which took me less time than the multiple angry responses to Jo took the=20 involved developers) and ask him which of them gave him the greatest=20 concerns? What's the point of the constant demands to either produce specific=20 relevant information of STFU? Are the developers trying to impress the=20 list with their professionalism? Their patience? Their knowledge? If you're offended that I hold the developers to a higher standard than I=20 do the users, then I plead guilty as charged and believe I am correct to=20 do so. As to your specific points: >> I'm sorry that the FreeBSD project failed to conform to your >> expectations. However, I invite you to actually try 6.3 for yourself >> instead of assuming that it will fail. > > This is the crux of the matter - Jo is complaining about software he > hasn't even tried. There is absolutely no way anybody can help him > until he actually tries 6.3 and reports any actual bugs and regressions > he finds." Not only is this wrong, but it completely misses the point. Why should Jo = have to upgrade to find out if his servers will fail under the conditions=20 already articulated in existing, unresolved PRs that affect hardware that=20 he is presently using? That's a bit like saying, "Buy this new car. Sure = it has bugs that could easily directly affect you, but what's the chance=20 you'll encounter them? in the off chance that they do, then you can help=20 us resolve them." You reveal extreme naivette when you state this: > That is also untrue. None of these are "bugs that are affecting [Jo]", > since he hasn't tried running 6.3 at all. Trust me. From a server admin's perspective, a bug affects you if it=20 exists in hardware you use. Whether or not you're actually using the OS=20 is completely irrelevant. Upgrading to the OS would be foolhardy. Even=20 testing it on a handful of boxes will not prove that it won't fail under=20 load in production. Anyone who has done testing knows it can only=20 simulate, not duplicate, the conditions under which production servers=20 run. I personally have experienced catastrophic failures after extensive=20 testing that revealed no problems. A civic-minded, community oriented FreeBSD user might volunteer a box to=20 act as a guinea pig (and Jo has), but a server admin would be a bit nuts=20 to experiment with his infrastructure. Nor do the claims of others that=20 he ought to have a test bed or he's negligent impress me. No one but he=20 knows the constraints that prevent him from doing so. Any assumptions=20 otherwise simply reveal the biases and ignorance of those making the = claim. All of us are constrained to one degree or another by our circumstances,=20 and the assumption that someone else's circumstances mirror our own=20 reveals either an ignorance of reality or an arrogance that is unseemly. Furthermore, other users who are already running 6.3 with no reported=20 problems would not reassure me that I would not encounter the problems=20 that are clearly articulated in the PRs and which directly affect my=20 hardware and remain unresolved! Or perhaps the developers believe that Jo is simply lying when he says=20 they affect him and refuse to listen to him until he provides the proof by = upgrading and experiencing breakage? Yes, I think some perspective is needed here, but it's not only Jo who=20 needs it nor is it he who needs it the most. I've lectured enough. If anyone doesn't get the point by now further=20 explanation isn't going to help. Paul Schmehl If it isn't already obvious, my opinions are my own and not those of my employer. --==========34D007FB25C9E2EAFF21==========--
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