Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 20:59:56 +0200 From: vermaden <vermaden@interia.pl> To: David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org>, Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Cc: David G Lawrence <dg@dglawrence.com>, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>, Michal Meloun <mmel@freebsd.org>, FreeBSD Current <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: <iykrvnwkoekrojvgfcir@rhzb> In-Reply-To: <558632AE-5331-4339-A979-BA6F9B9C0840@FreeBSD.org> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <CANCZdfpebFm3CwwOWNeyCzq2=1CWVcJLYKDc63Y-94K_d_PV1w@mail.gmail.com> <20250809114244.GU26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <20250809224836.f7207c3be3fbc8e0fd97f856@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <558632AE-5331-4339-A979-BA6F9B9C0840@FreeBSD.org>
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Hi. > As Vermaden replied to different thread of > this topic, his issue seems to be "in jail". Its not limited to Jail - I just tested it in a PKGBASE 15-CURRENT Bhyve VM and result is exactly the same - FreeBSD Base System destroyed and rendered unbootable after the `# pkg delete -af` command. > You don’t *upgrade* a container, you create container images > from a description, you create container instances from images. > The issue of uninstalling things in a container never arises, > because you simply destroy the container and create a new one > and import persistent data as volumes. If you want to recreate each Jail or VM everytime instead of upgrading its Base System and/or packages - then PKGBASE does not change anything here. You just wipe everything and extract `base.txz` there and add needed packages with pkg(8) the old way everytime you want to recreate it. Its 'Pets vs Cattle' discussion now ... there are environments where everything is generated/deployed with infra as code (stored in some git repo for example) and there are places where everything is still more or less managed and upgraded by hands - with 'some' automation and templates for example. Maybe my approach seem too much 'Pet' oriented - as all the places where I work(ed) this was 'the way' to do things - my job experiences are more 'on-premise' then 'cloud-like'. I do not have anything against PKGBASE - as freebsd-update(8) is far from perfect - and it does not have to be separate command - it can be a `--base` switch for example - which will change nothing for OCI containers or automation as that argument will be just included there in the commands - but will change a lot for people who use it by hand. Is this OCI containers work of dck@ and dfr@ linked somewhere on FreeBSD Wiki or somewhere else? Thanks, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-10 11:33 Nadawca: "David Chisnall" <theraven@FreeBSD.org> Adresat: "Tomoaki AOKI" <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp>; DW: "David G Lawrence" <dg@dglawrence.com>; "Warner Losh" <imp@bsdimp.com>; "Michal Meloun" <mmel@freebsd.org>; "FreeBSD Current" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; > > > On 9 Aug 2025, at 14:48, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: >> >> As Vermaden replied to different thread of this topic, his issue >> seems to be "in jail". IIUC, he attempted to deinstall everything >> installed PkgPkg (in contrast with PkgBase) keeping PkgBase world >> in the jail intact, but result was everything including PkgBase >> in the jail was deinstalled and made the jail unkillable. >> And stating there should be kinda "safety net" for such a case. > > It’s worth noting that this is precisely the kind of thing that the OCI model avoids entirely. You don’t *upgrade* a container, you create container images from a description, you create container instances from images. The issue of uninstalling things in a container never arises, because you simply destroy the container and create a new one and import persistent data as volumes. > > dch@, dfr@, and others have done phenomenal work to enable jails as the isolation mechanism for OCI containers and pkgbase is a key part of making this useful. > > David >help
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