Date: 20 May 2003 18:33:39 -0700 From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: ESR/OSI's Unix/Linux-history-laden treatise on SCO vs. IBM Message-ID: <xxbrxxw0b0.rxx@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com> References: <p05200f42baf03c5204ce@[192.168.254.205]> <20030520203225.GA30587@thyrsus.com>
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"Eric S. Raymond" <esr@thyrsus.com> writes:
> I've been forwarded some mail from the freebsd-chat list.
> Since I am trying to act as an advocate for the whole open-source
> community here, and not just Linux, a few comments and responses:
First let me say that I was sorry, after posting my typically-critical
comments, that I had not commented on more of the good things about the
treatise, beyond recommending it as interesting. It covered a wealth of
issues and did a great job doing it, on whole. Even good grammar and
spelling -- a rare thing. It'll be a good reference for a long time,
despite it's topical main subject.
While I stopped using Linux two years ago, I'm still a webmaster for my
local LUG and would gladly join Linux users in praising you for your
efforts in this important contribution to Linux. As for the BSDs, I
suspect that Linux's legal problems will have only secondary effects
stemming from the attendant discussions, such as your treatise.
> Gary Swearingen:
> > It contains a few whoppers:
> > a complaint that SCO slighted by saying he "introduced" Linux to the
> > world, presumably instead of ESR's absurd claim the Linus "invented"
> > it ("in 1991"!).
>
> Is there some other year you would propose?
I would have said "Linus and others, starting his kernel in 1991". It's
still being invented, and by many. What mostly bothered me was that in
such a document, you should have given SCO's comment the benefit of the
ample doubt that it was intended to slight Linus.
> > In his wrap-up, he gives us this copyleftic whopper: "We wrote our
> > Unix and Linux code as a gift and an expression of art, to be
> > enjoyed by our peers and used by others for all licit purposes both
> > non-profit and for-profit." (I dispute the phrase "all licit
> > purposes" as regards the Linux kernel and other "GNU is not Unix"
> > parts of "the Unix tradition".)
>
> This supposed "copyleftic whopper" is something I have observed in
> most of my peers since 1982, long before copyleft was invented.
And that was great; but then Stallman came along an convinced too many
people to replace "all licit purposes" with "open-source-only purposes",
effectively replacing the GIFT of a license to derive with a
FEE-LICENSING contract, with payment in the form of a cross-license of
the deriver's own source code.
What's worse is that y'all apply the same old propaganda about gifts to
the old and GNU types of free software, even to the extent of
appropriating the good name of non-proprietary (ie, Public Domain)
software and applying it to any GPL-compatible software, even that with
the strong protections of proprietary derivation rights of the GPL.
> > A couple of minor problems:
> > He says Unix was invented in 1969, Linux in 1991 (as if they
> > were invented within one year.)
>
> This is within the normal usage of "invention" for technologies with
> a complex history.
I've been reading technical stuff since about 1966, and it looked
strange to me. But then you might have read MORE than I have.
> > He inappropriately refers to "Ronald McDonald's restaurants".
>
> That's been fixed. (Hey, *you* try writing under pressure!)
Yeah, I should do that.
> > He is biased toward Linux and away from BSDs, saying:
> > "We in the open-source community (and our allies) are more than
> > competent to carry forward the Unix tradition we founded so many
> > years ago."
> > soon after saying:
> > "The technical leading edge of the Unix tradition had moved
> > elsewhere, notably to Linux."
>
> Had I meant "We in the *Linux* community", that's what I would have
> written. It says "open-source community" specifically to include you guys.
> Don't be paranoid; you make enemies that way.
So I've learned. But I do believe you showed bias in that "notably to
Linux" crack, at least there in your discussion of the 1991-95 period.
> Remember that I'm writing for *lawyers*, not geeks. Like it or not,
> "Linux" is the open-source community's big visible brand name. In
> this context, talking about BSD would be falling off message. It's
> not that I'm biased against BSD, it's that I know when it's good
> tactics to ring the "Linux" bell that J. Random Lawyer will recognize
> and then shut the hell up about the other details.
Your good tactic harmed the BSDs. We can each judge whether that's
worthwhile. Please don't over-estimate the level of offense people have
taken when they simply note the offense.
> > I wish that he'd added to his several off-topic pot-shots, the fact that
> > none of the industry-making "Unix tradition" would have been happened
> > had courts developed their concept of software patents before the birth
> > of Unix.
>
> I specifically *refuse* to do that. We do not want to open up the can
> of worms that would be involved in proposing wholesale reform of IP law.
> That would be a great way to get slapped down and lose.
Of course, if the treatise is going to be aimed at courts. But it sure
didn't look like it WAS. It seemed way too coversational (?) for that.
("pure nostalgia trip"; "brazen mendacity"; "insult our competence";
"When OSDL spun up"; " is false and insulting. It is also dishonest.";
"They know better."; "SCO's 10Ks"; etc.) Even I wouldn't dare include
my pot-shot (more of a broadside?) at the courts, if writing for them,
but I wouldn't be so "entertaining", either.
And if the target is a court, please consider that they are unlikely to
share the peculiar misuse of "proprietary" that is rampant in the open
source world thanks to RMS and the Hacker's Dictionary.
In any case, you've done a lot better job than I ever could or would do.
Thanks for doing it as well as you have; it showed LOTS of work.
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