Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 19:00:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> To: FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>, Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <1751079266.5066266.1681758046058@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <e77a0575-238d-9ae7-2301-81e82d38a5be@tundraware.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <CA%2B1FSihVPCQ6tp8u=aqnLyyOPpCMrnhYGcC8bCUgRbFHTdY5sA@mail.gmail.com> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9132FC42688@ellael.org> <20230417133223.3ef5e26c.freebsd@edvax.de> <CA%2B1FSihn%2BB6LTUm7gof6Nd=niL5=dMvQ46HUv=NJ2%2BNhcLS7RQ@mail.gmail.com> <989A99FE-5DA3-4346-B886-32F8E64BA6F0@nimnet.asn.au> <8714f66b-cd2a-2dd3-67ba-9313522ee1b6@tundrawar e.com> <1096316421.4975742.1681752853038@mail.yahoo.com> <e77a0575-2 38d-9ae7-2301-81e82d38a5be@tundraware.com>
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I think we are very like minded courtesy of the training.
Whenever I bring up the C compiler bug and people go.... why in the heck wo=
uld i++ and i=3Di+1 execute differently?=C2=A0 They wouldn't.Ahh.... but ye=
s they did.=C2=A0 It was due to the person who interpreted the meaning of o=
ne versus the meaning of the other.... in assembler....
Having to go through stor(es) and inc(rement) into registers versus storing=
the values of i and 1 and getting the result and storing it in the new val=
ue of i.... extra steps that cost a lot in the end.
I think K&R C was in use for at least 10 years before it was discovered.
I remember trying to do simple digital logic circuits with Karnaugh maps et=
c. and trying to optimize logic down to just a few logic gates on integrate=
d circuit chips of NANDs, ANDs, XOR, OR, NOR.
Trying to keep costs down by optimally lowering the amount of chips require=
d to get full functionality.
VAXen and PDPs with REMOVABLE DISK pack of 20 MB.... that weighed 20-30 lbs=
. :)=C2=A0 Platters that were the size of vinyl records.... Running BSD 4.x
I was pretty crotchety when people started with containers and virtualizati=
on and... MICROSERVICES....=C2=A0 I was like:=C2=A0 you do understand what =
a scheduler and time sharing are all about right?=C2=A0 You know about UNIX=
, right?=C2=A0 You do know about "nice"=C2=A0 why would I want to put limit=
s on some simulated machine and expect it will work better than the job con=
trol and scheduler of the kernel?
Yeah... boomer mentality....=C2=A0 But we continue to work on this stuff...=
. Honestly, I can't wait to fully retire.... I have a lot of cycles I want =
to donate to BSD.
Paul
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:29:56 AM PDT, Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tund=
raware.com> wrote: =20
=20
On 4/17/23 12:34, Paul Pathiakis wrote:
> Personally, I haven't see it yet. Again, I hated getting a CS degree.=C2=
=A0 It was hell on wheels and kept running me over.=C2=A0 The incredible am=
ount of math, automata theory, etc, etc.
> Then, I got out in the 'real world'.=C2=A0 I was thoroughly shocked at ho=
w people casually threw aside critical thinking, design, implementation, pr=
oject planning, software engineering paradigms, and started to 'program' 10=
years after I got out.
I have a Masters in CS, and an uncompleted Ph.D. (I guess that makes me a c=
ollege dropout.)
Both were in the strongly theoretical end of CS, with a focus on computatio=
nal
theory, as well as the design of computer languages.
I have found the theory to be very useful in understanding problems and
reasoning about how algorithms and data structures and so forth can
foster better design.=C2=A0 As you suggest, these encourage critical thinki=
ng.
What you see today is people screaming for "agile" when you ask for
time to do careful requirements gathering.=C2=A0 Young "coders" come out
of bootcamps that teach them one language and an IDE with absolutely
no understanding of the overatching environments in which they are
coding, let along a firm grasp of algorithmics and data structures.
I feel I am far afield and showing too many Boomer feathers.
"In my day, we didn't have 1s and 0s, we had Ohs and Ells and we LIKED it .=
."
=20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp5fe62172yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I think we are very like min=
ded courtesy of the training.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><=
br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Whenever I bring up the C c=
ompiler bug and people go.... why in the heck would i++ and i=3Di+1 execute=
differently? They wouldn't.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fal=
se">Ahh.... but yes they did. It was due to the person who interprete=
d the meaning of one versus the meaning of the other.... in assembler....</=
div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-=
setdir=3D"false">Having to go through stor(es) and inc(rement) into registe=
rs versus storing the values of i and 1 and getting the result and storing =
it in the new value of i.... extra steps that cost a lot in the end.</div><=
div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false">I think K&R C was in use for at least 10 years before it wa=
s discovered.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I remember trying to do simple digital logi=
c circuits with Karnaugh maps etc. and trying to optimize logic down to jus=
t a few logic gates on integrated circuit chips of NANDs, ANDs, XOR, OR, NO=
R.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" d=
ata-setdir=3D"false">Trying to keep costs down by optimally lowering the am=
ount of chips required to get full functionality.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" dat=
a-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">VAXen a=
nd PDPs with REMOVABLE DISK pack of 20 MB.... that weighed 20-30 lbs. :)&nb=
sp; Platters that were the size of vinyl records.... Running BSD 4.x</div><=
div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false">I was pretty crotchety when people started with containers and =
virtualization and... MICROSERVICES.... I was like: you do unde=
rstand what a scheduler and time sharing are all about right? You kno=
w about UNIX, right? You do know about "nice" why would I want =
to put limits on some simulated machine and expect it will work better than=
the job control and scheduler of the kernel?</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-se=
tdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Yeah... boo=
mer mentality.... But we continue to work on this stuff.... Honestly,=
I can't wait to fully retire.... I have a lot of cycles I want to donate t=
o BSD.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r" data-setdir=3D"false">Paul</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
=20
</div><div id=3D"ydpb7626b05yahoo_quoted_2526627205" class=3D"ydpb7=
626b05yahoo_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div>
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:29:56 AM PDT, Tim Danel=
iuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">On 4/17/23 12:34, Paul Pathiakis wrot=
e:<div class=3D"ydpb7626b05yqt4088676299" id=3D"ydpb7626b05yqtfd67319"><br =
clear=3D"none">> Personally, I haven't see it yet. Again, I hated gettin=
g a CS degree. It was hell on wheels and kept running me over. =
The incredible amount of math, automata theory, etc, etc.<br clear=3D"none"=
>> Then, I got out in the 'real world'. I was thoroughly shocked a=
t how people casually threw aside critical thinking, design, implementation=
, project planning, software engineering paradigms, and started to 'program=
' 10 years after I got out.</div><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br =
clear=3D"none">I have a Masters in CS, and an uncompleted Ph.D. (I guess th=
at makes me a college dropout.)<br clear=3D"none">Both were in the strongly=
theoretical end of CS, with a focus on computational<br clear=3D"none">the=
ory, as well as the design of computer languages.<br clear=3D"none"><br cle=
ar=3D"none">I have found the theory to be very useful in understanding prob=
lems and<br clear=3D"none">reasoning about how algorithms and data structur=
es and so forth can<br clear=3D"none">foster better design. As you su=
ggest, these encourage critical thinking.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"no=
ne">What you see today is people screaming for "agile" when you ask for<br =
clear=3D"none">time to do careful requirements gathering. Young "code=
rs" come out<br clear=3D"none">of bootcamps that teach them one language an=
d an IDE with absolutely<br clear=3D"none">no understanding of the overatch=
ing environments in which they are<br clear=3D"none">coding, let along a fi=
rm grasp of algorithmics and data structures.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none">I feel I am far afield and showing too many Boomer feathers.<br c=
lear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">"In my day, we didn't have 1s and 0s, we h=
ad Ohs and Ells and we LIKED it .."<div class=3D"ydpb7626b05yqt4088676299" =
id=3D"ydpb7626b05yqtfd64952"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div></=
div></div>
</div>
</div></body></html>
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