Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:16:52 -0700 From: Chris <bsd-lists@BSDforge.com> To: Grzegorz Junka <list1@gjunka.com> Cc: <freebsd-x11@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Ars Technica article Message-ID: <3a0f9e4c28e04b23381f7b202161a09d@udns.ultimatedns.net> In-Reply-To: <1d083a6b-f5bf-fa56-adc9-4c6cd8acb5d2@gjunka.com>
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On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:42:45 +0000 Grzegorz Junka list1@gjunka.com said > On 13/04/2020 21:46, Chris wrote: > > > >> Thankfully, Linux code can't enter FreeBSD base because of different > >> licensing. > >> > >> I hope you don't advocate for re-implementing drivers for FreeBSD? > >> What about NVidia drivers that aren't even distributed with source > >> code? Surely, they provide binary packages for FreeBSD, but without > >> support for Vulkan for example. Without any documentation of the > >> hardware ports how this could be even achieved? > >> > >> Besides, I am happy when I see a vendor or developer supports Linux, > >> apart from the usual Windows or Mac, not even mentioning FreeBSD. > >> Many don't even differentiate beyond Linux, listing support for > >> FreeBSD under Linux and other distro sections! > >> > >> I think we need to be pragmatic about it. Neither AMD nor NVidia will > >> provide FreeBSD drivers and FreeBSD can't implement those drivers, > >> either for objective reasons (man power) or because it's not feasible > >> (NVidia). If we can reuse existing drivers that the manufacturers are > >> releasing and updating frequently, and only focus on the > >> compatibility layer, then why not? > > Agreed. The challenges are many. How? How have we managed so far? Yes. > > We've been (seemingly) forced to import video blobs for some (G|A)PUs. > > But > > what of the others? What of the French driver project; Nouveau? How have > > they managed? Granted it *too* is Linux based. But they got there > > *somehow*. > > Would it be a worthy venture to start a project like that that either > > imports && recobbles that project into "native" code? Or? I've been at > > this > > for over 50yrs, and I've amassed more hardware than you could imagine. > > Need > > to get FreeBSD on a Mac SE dsdd? NP. a PDP? Oh wait, that was done > > l-o-n-g > > ago. But I've got several models available -- just in case. > > I'm serious. I'm willing to participate in whatever capacity I can. But > > IMHO importing Linux stuff isn't really "keeping ahead of the curve". > > > > Are you trying to encourage developers to start a new project aimed at > reimplementing major, sometimes closed, graphics drivers, for BSD, or > even just FreeBSD? A project that would cost them lots of time and no > pay but possibly a gratitude from happy users? If so, a comment to a > post in a list group might not be sufficient. The idea would need to go > out, developers evangelized, people convinced... As they say, the best > leading is by example :-) Of course! Wasn't it obvious? ;-) > > Jokes aside, you might be overestimating what Nouveau was able to > achieve. First of all, they reverse-engineer. That means a working > driver might only appear on the market after the hardware has been > released and reverse-engineered. Sometimes long after, if at all. > > Secondly, they only implement the minimum that's required to make them > usable, which means no CUDA and no Vulkan support. Also look at this > matrix <https://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/FeatureMatrix/>, especially > all the mostly and todos for the already quite old chipsets. > > Lastly, Nouveau is mostly driven by RedHat's corporation money > <https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nouveau-2020-Early-Status>. > > A project of this size needs a commercial sponsor just to keep up with > the pace of changes. Or a foundation. FreeBSD already sponsors some work > in the graphics stack but surely that wouldn't be enough for > re-implementing drivers, so a new one? So what you're basically saying; is that there really isn't that much interest in FreeBSD by any users worldwide. So any chance of attracting developers, and or capitol is pretty much -1. Depressing. :( > > From my point of view, accelerated graphics I mostly want to use on the > desktop and I don't really care if it's coming from Linux or elsewhere > as long as it properly supports all the latest features of my hardware > so that my heard earned cash I spent on buying it is utilized. On the > server I don't even use a graphic stack, I have IPMI or SSH, so none of > the Linux parts affect it. In all honesty, I build, deploy and run almost exclusively server images. I only use a light DE for convenience on development on larger projects. But still... Guess it's time for me to start badgering some Intel && AMD employees. :) Thanks! :-) > > -- > GrzegorzJ --Chrishome | help
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