Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 16:16:52 -0700 From: Chris <bsd-lists@BSDforge.com> To: Grzegorz Junka <list1@gjunka.com> Cc: <freebsd-x11@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Ars Technica article Message-ID: <3a0f9e4c28e04b23381f7b202161a09d@udns.ultimatedns.net> In-Reply-To: <1d083a6b-f5bf-fa56-adc9-4c6cd8acb5d2@gjunka.com>
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On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 12:42:45 +0000 Grzegorz Junka list1@gjunka=2Ecom said > On 13/04/2020 21:46, Chris wrote: > > > >> Thankfully, Linux code can't enter FreeBSD base because of different= =20 > >> licensing=2E > >> > >> I hope you don't advocate for re-implementing drivers for FreeBSD?=20 > >> What about NVidia drivers that aren't even distributed with source=20 > >> code? Surely, they provide binary packages for FreeBSD, but without=20 > >> support for Vulkan for example=2E Without any documentation of the=20 > >> hardware ports how this could be even achieved? > >> > >> Besides, I am happy when I see a vendor or developer supports Linux,= =20 > >> apart from the usual Windows or Mac, not even mentioning FreeBSD=2E=20 > >> Many don't even differentiate beyond Linux, listing support for=20 > >> FreeBSD under Linux and other distro sections! > >> > >> I think we need to be pragmatic about it=2E Neither AMD nor NVidia will= =20 > >> provide FreeBSD drivers and FreeBSD can't implement those drivers,=20 > >> either for objective reasons (man power) or because it's not feasible= =20 > >> (NVidia)=2E If we can reuse existing drivers that the manufacturers are= =20 > >> releasing and updating frequently, and only focus on the=20 > >> compatibility layer, then why not? > > Agreed=2E The challenges are many=2E How? How have we managed so far? Yes=2E > > We've been (seemingly) forced to import video blobs for some (G|A)PUs=2E= =20 > > But > > what of the others? What of the French driver project; Nouveau? How hav= e > > they managed? Granted it *too* is Linux based=2E But they got there=20 > > *somehow*=2E > > Would it be a worthy venture to start a project like that that either > > imports && recobbles that project into "native" code? Or? I've been at= =20 > > this > > for over 50yrs, and I've amassed more hardware than you could imagine=2E= =20 > > Need > > to get FreeBSD on a Mac SE dsdd? NP=2E a PDP? Oh wait, that was done=20 > > l-o-n-g > > ago=2E But I've got several models available -- just in case=2E > > I'm serious=2E I'm willing to participate in whatever capacity I can=2E But > > IMHO importing Linux stuff isn't really "keeping ahead of the curve"=2E > > >=20 > Are you trying to encourage developers to start a new project aimed at=20 > reimplementing major, sometimes closed, graphics drivers, for BSD, or=20 > even just FreeBSD? A project that would cost them lots of time and no=20 > pay but possibly a gratitude from happy users? If so, a comment to a=20 > post in a list group might not be sufficient=2E The idea would need to go= =20 > out, developers evangelized, people convinced=2E=2E=2E As they say, the best=20 > leading is by example :-) Of course! Wasn't it obvious? ;-) >=20 > Jokes aside, you might be overestimating what Nouveau was able to=20 > achieve=2E First of all, they reverse-engineer=2E That means a working=20 > driver might only appear on the market after the hardware has been=20 > released and reverse-engineered=2E Sometimes long after, if at all=2E >=20 > Secondly, they only implement the minimum that's required to make them=20 > usable, which means no CUDA and no Vulkan support=2E Also look at this=20 > matrix <https://nouveau=2Efreedesktop=2Eorg/wiki/FeatureMatrix/>, especially= =20 > all the mostly and todos for the already quite old chipsets=2E >=20 > Lastly, Nouveau is mostly driven by RedHat's corporation money=20 > <https://www=2Ephoronix=2Ecom/scan=2Ephp?page=3Dnews_item&px=3DNouveau-2020-Ear= ly-Status>=2E >=20 > A project of this size needs a commercial sponsor just to keep up with=20 > the pace of changes=2E Or a foundation=2E FreeBSD already sponsors some work= =20 > in the graphics stack but surely that wouldn't be enough for=20 > re-implementing drivers, so a new one? So what you're basically saying; is that there really isn't that much inter= est in FreeBSD by any users worldwide=2E So any chance of attracting developers, = and or capitol is pretty much -1=2E Depressing=2E :( >=20 > From my point of view, accelerated graphics I mostly want to use on the= =20 > desktop and I don't really care if it's coming from Linux or elsewhere=20 > as long as it properly supports all the latest features of my hardware=20 > so that my heard earned cash I spent on buying it is utilized=2E On the=20 > server I don't even use a graphic stack, I have IPMI or SSH, so none of= =20 > the Linux parts affect it=2E In all honesty, I build, deploy and run almost exclusively server images=2E I only use a light DE for convenience on development on larger projects=2E But still=2E=2E=2E Guess it's time for me to start badgering some Intel && AMD employees=2E :) Thanks! :-) >=20 > -- > GrzegorzJ --Chris
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