Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 17:42:44 -0700 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org> Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Enji Cooper <yaneurabeya@gmail.com>, Igor Mozolevsky <igor@hybrid-lab.co.uk>, Wojciech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> Subject: Re: Strategic Thinking (was: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components) Message-ID: <CANCZdfoJJhGQ750h9HREkhUcqCA%2B5jO260UotyRjDQTKR_AHrA@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAOtMX2jdDSUwtifm=a_nqJWg_5yCOoe4BYGmO4QkbysRZ8UCrg@mail.gmail.com> References: <wojtek@puchar.net> <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net> <201901032228.x03MSxkq087945@slippy.cwsent.com> <CAOtMX2jdDSUwtifm=a_nqJWg_5yCOoe4BYGmO4QkbysRZ8UCrg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 3:53 PM Alan Somers <asomers@freebsd.org wrote: > On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> > wrote: > > > > In message <alpine.BSF.2.20.1901032030260.40635@puchar.net>, Wojciech > > Puchar wr > > ites: > > > >> That's precisely how ideas that most people disagree with get > *pushed* > > > >> through by evangelists with confirmation bias! Like someone said > > > >> earlier in the discussion: does Rust add anything? The answer is a > > > >> resounding NO, save for bloat. > > > > > > > > And this is why one reason people say =C3=A2=E2=82=AC=C5=93FreeBSD = is dying=C3=A2=E2=82=AC . > > > > > > > dying for whom? > > > > Not to answer this question but to think strategically: > > > > I come from the corporate/government environment, having spent most of > > my time there. Large datacentres (Canadian spelling), large machines, > > large networks of machines, large networks. In this environment, today, > > virtualization in all forms are the platforms of business. Migrations > > from physical platforms running AIX, Solaris and Linux to either Linux > > on VMware or Linux containers is where they are putting 100% of their > > effort. The language of choice is mostly Java. Much of the Java is > > canned too. What used to be implemented on LAMP stacks is now being > > implemented using microservices. The platform of choice for > > microservices is Linux. Stripped down Linux primarily capable of > > supporting microservices. And now at $JOB we're talking about running > > microservices on Linux VMs -- virtualization on virtualization, on a > > virtual network (NSX). My customers are working on microservices and > > containers that can be migrated from their private cloud to the public > > cloud and back again easily. > > > > Even Microsoft is working on a container strategy. The future is > > containers. The desktop platform isn't nearly as important any more. > > And, the physical server, its location, what it runs on and who runs it > > are also less important. What is important is the speed and cost > > effectiveness of standing up applications. > > > > IMO we have strengths that can immediately be capitalized on, like the > > Linuxulator. If anything could be in base it might be go, the language > > Kubernetes is written in -- don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating > > importing go into base. Having said that, transforming FreeBSD into a > > PaaS platform, tying it all together using Kubernetes would position > > FreeBSD for the future to come. Maybe I'm talking myself into go and > > Kubernetes in base but maybe this could just as easily be done in ports= . > > > > Think about this: Kubernetes in base or ports, using the Linuxulator > > and jails (or an implementation of cgroups and namespaces constructs in > > addition to jails). Bhyve and jails provide the enterprise with other > > virtualization options such that a FreeBSD host could host Linux or > > FreeBSD containers, Windows or other VMs, and FreeBSD jails, all on one > > or a cluster of FreeBSD hosts, possibly part of a heterogeneous cluster= . > > > > This IMO would position FreeBSD for the future. > > > > Maybe go and Kubernetes? Let's not be left behind. > > > > > > -- > > Cheers, > > Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> > > FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org > > > > The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. > > FreeBSD support in Kubernetes would be great, but I don't think > there's any reason to put it into base. The interesting thing about > Rust is that it's so good at low-level work. As we discussed, > Johannes Lundberg has written a device driver in Rust. And Fabian > Freyer is working on jail(3) and jail(8) replacements in Rust. Enji > is thinking about writing an rc(8) replacement in Rust. These are the > kind of projects that make sense to do in base, apart from the > language barrier. Go, I think, would be just fine remaining in ports. > If I were to pick any language other than Rust to add to the base > system, it might be Lua. Though high level, its embeddable and nicely > complements C and Rust. That's why it's used internally in Kyua, and > it even in the NetBSD kernel. > We already have. The boot loader uses the latest, almost stock version. ZFS uses it's weird, hacked version to send down config programs. The build glue to get a luac is pretty small at this point :) Warner > > -Alan > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " >
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