Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2024 21:05:34 -0600 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk>, Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen@sdaoden.eu>, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <CANCZdfrBQ=jUbi62v%2BATzY82Ua9VXoHsPJb--ZhB_52KXWn%2BLw@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp> References: <CAOtMX2hAUiWdGPtpaCJLPZB%2Bj2yzNw5DSjUmkwTi%2B%2BmyemehCA@mail.gmail.com> <vdmg5zocd6wqcwc2bvzvzqn4bii2pwdc2r4mgnisukfkboj6nf@f7lv5quu4fjx> <CAOtMX2iDK3uN_oQgzzZAdoOZCfNsnvpefeZvKoTCRmPBhZywzA@mail.gmail.com> <CANCZdfqB1%2B-8BkpKwKoCM%2BzM4mCOFy63yHr1Pco7MnT1DFkb4w@mail.gmail.com> <EF084C36-D2EA-4194-B30F-253B0E8D5B4D@iitbombay.org> <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com> <20240805210149.nrkHN3j3@steffen%sdaoden.eu> <202408052127.475LROnE067608@critter.freebsd.dk> <CANCZdfrh-74M0L-Z%2BOOnqSD6xO3PyaUXWc8LPWxtRbsWawu4qA@mail.gmail.com> <20240806072906.bc206fa9b77ffc949317bd19@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <CANCZdfptdHfoVc9WrayuMw4P4LEusKYrup-PvvVOp7bZ7ZSWCg@mail.gmail.com> <20240806074942.a8ef6b35a06ca0638e672327@dec.sakura.ne.jp>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:49 PM Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> wrote: > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600 > Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29 PM Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600 > > > Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27 PM Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes: > > > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in > > > > > > <704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com>: > > > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah < > bakul@iitbombay.org> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to > > > > > > .. > > > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; > picking > > > up \ > > > > > > |phone reading this thread. > > > > > > | > > > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50 > > > years \ > > > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and > put > > > some > > > > > \ > > > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo > lists to > > > \ > > > > > > > > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua. > > > > > > > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, > though... > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not > > > deleted. :-) > > > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one > > > complains about loader.lua. > > > > > > > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader is > > its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when > bearssl > > and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage. > > > > But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing > > notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that. > > Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default) > something written in Forth for base, other than loader. > 4th is too hard to program in and doesn't lend iitselfwell to string processing. > Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop > shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest. > Yea. Too many VMs want a CSM interface, so we'll be stuck with it for some time to come :(. Warner > > > > Warner > > > > -- > > > Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> > > > > > > -- > Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp> > [-- Attachment #2 --] <div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 4:49 PM Tomoaki AOKI <<a href="mailto:junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp">junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 16:33:24 -0600<br> Warner Losh <<a href="mailto:imp@bsdimp.com" target="_blank">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br> <br> > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, 4:29 PM Tomoaki AOKI <<a href="mailto:junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp" target="_blank">junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp</a>> wrote:<br> > <br> > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2024 15:32:17 -0600<br> > > Warner Losh <<a href="mailto:imp@bsdimp.com" target="_blank">imp@bsdimp.com</a>> wrote:<br> > ><br> > > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 3:27 PM Poul-Henning Kamp <<a href="mailto:phk@phk.freebsd.dk" target="_blank">phk@phk.freebsd.dk</a>><br> > > wrote:<br> > > ><br> > > > > --------<br> > > > > Steffen Nurpmeso writes:<br> > > > > > Cy Schubert wrote in<br> > > > > > <<a href="mailto:704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com" target="_blank">704D020F-78A4-4926-AE3C-41F7FD619A89@cschubert.com</a>>:<br> > > > > > |On July 31, 2024 10:49:52 AM PDT, Bakul Shah <<a href="mailto:bakul@iitbombay.org" target="_blank">bakul@iitbombay.org</a>><br> > > > > wrote:<br> > > > > > |>All this talk won't lead to anything much so a suggestion to<br> > > > > > ..<br> > > > > > |Sorry for being late to the party. Last day of vacation; picking<br> > > up \<br> > > > > > |phone reading this thread.<br> > > > > > |<br> > > > > > |Like much in this business (been doing this stuff for about 50<br> > > years \<br> > > > > > |now) there is a cohort unwilling to roll up their sleeves and put<br> > > some<br> > > > > \<br> > > > > > |skin in the game, expecting others already with long todo lists to<br> > > \<br> > > > > ><br> > > > > > Most user space tools could be written in lua.<br> > > > ><br> > > > > That /exact/ same argument was made for Perl :-)<br> > > > ><br> > > ><br> > > > Lua's been in the base since I imported it for the boot loader, though...<br> > > ><br> > > > Warner<br> > ><br> > > And Forth was introduced for loader prior to lua and still not<br> > > deleted. :-)<br> > > I think it would be removed sometime in the future once no one<br> > > complains about loader.lua.<br> > ><br> > <br> > The only remaining legitimate complaint I've heard against lua loader is<br> > its size in BIOS land. It's about 50ish k too big still there when bearssl<br> > and veriexec are on given lua's stack usage.<br> > <br> > But we never wrote other system utils in forth (bearssl parsing<br> > notwithstanding) nor had a critical mass of people wanting to do that.<br> <br> Exactly. I once thought why? But never seen (at least by default)<br> something written in Forth for base, other than loader.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>4th is too hard to program in and doesn't lend iitselfwell to string</div><div>processing.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Maybe it would be when firmwares shipped for first hand users stop<br> shipping CSM that Forth is removed from base, ealiest.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yea. Too many VMs want a CSM interface, so we'll be stuck with it</div><div>for some time to come :(. </div><div><br></div><div>Warner</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > <br> > Warner<br> > <br> > -- <br> > > Tomoaki AOKI <<a href="mailto:junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp" target="_blank">junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp</a>><br> > ><br> <br> <br> -- <br> Tomoaki AOKI <<a href="mailto:junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp" target="_blank">junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp</a>><br> </blockquote></div></div>
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